Cabin Heating System

[Administrator]

Is there any interest in a cabin heating system fed by hot water from the A4?

[David Masury]

It might be very interesting here in the Northeast, I certainly would like to be able to turn it off and on. It would be especially nice to use with a fresh water cooling system.

David

[lat 64]

I just installed a cabin heater in my old Columbia 36 this summer.
I can chronicle the story later. It works well.

Is MMI thinking of a kit?

Russ

[sastanley]

My cabin heating system is to take the cushion & board off the top of the motor...:D

[Dave Neptune]

Good idea, only it's warm out here in So. Cal. :p most of the year. When it gets cold we bake cookies and make Hot-butterd Rum's.:D

Very interesting:rolleyes:
Dave Neptune:cool:

[marthur]

Yes, in Michigan we can certainly use a little heat.

[Jesse Delanoy]

I'd be happy if I could get my raw water cooled A4 to heat my hot water tank!

Couple of weeks back I had to motor from Solomons to Rhode River for about 10 hours against the weather, starting with a tank full of hot water (having been on shore power for days), and it cooled the water down, much to my surprise next morning.

Jesse Delanoy
s/v Off the Grid
Pasadena/Baltimore

[sastanley]

Jesse, I have a RWC A-4 too, and I am thinking about hot fresh water some day to make the wife happy.

I think I'd probably go to FWC & a heat exchanger to get hot fresh water at the same time???

You should have alerted me you were in Solomons...My home port is there!! I live 5 minutes on the other side of the bridge!

[Administrator]

Shawn:

We were down your way 3 or 4 weeks ago. Spent one nite in Mill Creek (upstream of the bridge) and a couple of days at Spring Cove Marina, where my wife had a great time doing laps in that 83 degree pool.

We had planned to go up to Vera's, just to see how much the place had changed since she passed away, but we learned the restaurant was only open Thursday thru Sunday.

We would have loved some local knowledge about where to eat. Stoney's was a bust, and we never got to the CD Cafe, which we had heard was very good.

It looked like the fishing was tremendous. We saw guys pulling them in all over the place.

Great boating area!

Bill

[sastanley]

Bill (& anyone else passing thru Solomons!!!!!),
Send a message anytime!!!

As a local, I would agree that Stoney's has gone a little commercial for the traditionalists. It is always a good standby but not the best stop (they also now own Solomons Pier)

I was at Vera's this summer when we anchored in St. Leonard's Creek for a weekend...I worked there (Vera's) as a teenager (20+ years ago) - Now they have live bands and dancing on the weekends. I think the piano is gone, but it hasn't changed too much. I used to plant the banana trees & cut the grass, & pump gas back in the day.

The owner of Spring Cove is a Laser sailing buddy of mine and where I haul the boat when I need work. GREAT MARINA. Next time, check out the Naughty Gull restaurant (at Spring Cove)...service isn't always great, but the food is good! - You can't go wrong at CD Cafe either! - Another good place within walking distance of Spring Cove is "Captain's Table" @ the Beacon Inn. Again, it is an old building, & close to the water for the landlubbers, but the food is good!

One of our favorite "we just need to get on the boat this weekend" places is Mill Creek (above the bridge) - we may even get there this weekend!

Twice Around is moored on the Solomons' "Mill Creek" - technically on 'Old House Cove' at a friends' house. I live on the south side of the Pax River bridge (to the left as you pass under it) and the boat is only a 15 minute drive away on the north side.

By the way - I voted - "Sounds Interesting!!"

[rjm]

I have a fresh water cooled A4 with a Redot heater it works great.. came of the hottest part of the engine and has a ball vale to turn it off in the summer

[lat 64]

Here's a drawing of my heater install this summer.
I spent two full days cutting, drilling and climbing around in the lockers and such.
Many trips to the Gear Shed and about two hundred bucks for hose, valves, clamps, glycol, switch, wire, tees, grill, band-aids, and beer.

I put the heater in the locker under the dining settee. It blows out across your feet. I highly recommend that location. It took 20 feet of hose (x2) to reach there.
I made it bleed off a little of the warm air into the locker itself and it makes it nice and dry in there now. I just installed the heater loose against the fiberglass so it would leak some warm air off sideways in the locker.
The heater was donated from an old old truck or something, no one knows what for sure. I rebuilt the broken plastic heater case with aluminum, then cleaned it and tested it before installing it.

I finished the job with a rectangular grill to cover the hole I cut in the seat locker. I just used a house-style light switch for now, but A marine-grade switch should be in the future. I did use good wire and the expensive crimp ends with heat-shrink sleeves—they are so very awesome:cool:.

At the engine I teed off at the water coming from the manifold. I put a valve at both sides so I can throttle back either the heater or the heat exchanger to manage the flow just where I want it. I tested the cooling effectiveness of the heater without the heat exchanger and it works! I now have a spare cooler for the engine. The heater probably won't keep up at high work loads but I like having the option.
The heater return water is just teed into the fresh-water return to the engine. A valve here also so I can isolate the heater for any reason.

I'm usually pretty cheap when I do stuff like this but I can see a heater install could Push $700-$800 for a pure check-writing boat owner. I'm sure this figure may be low:confused:

Stay warm,

Russell

[sastanley]

Nice work Russ. Do you have a fan I assume to force air thru the heater core?

[lat 64]

Shawn,
Yea, it's a little unit heater just like the red dots with a propellor style fan.
If a cheepo person like me was to get a heater out of a junk yard, they'd be better off getting generic style like from a road maintenance tractor or the like. Auto heaters are so integral with the dash/AC that you'd be all week just modifying it to fit. I must have six or eight hours just playing with my old heater—only cost effective if you like messing about in boats. :rolleyes:

I have come to realize that there is lots of benefit of air blowing around down in the nether regions of the hull. The air in my boat is drawn up from the bilge between the hull and hull liner and then into the seat locker where it is heated and blown out across the floor. Out with the bad air, in with the good.:)

r.

[alberg]

I had a cabin heater run from the engine but removed because I was not comfortable having long water lines in the cabin. Also for it to work the engine has to be running and this alone will produce enough heat for my needs.
Alberg

[sastanley]

alberg,
I find the same so far...lifting the cushions, etc.. to cool her off after a heard day is SOP. However, my and the wife are planning to spend the night on the boat this evening...the coolest we'll have had here all summer,we may enjoy that 'free' heat tonight :D

A good place to mount the heater core in my boat is where I want to put a second water tank. :rolleyes:

[phrf201]

Yes, I would be very interested. I sail in the northeast and it would be very handy to have a cabin heater on those chilly Spring and Fall evenings. I've read about boat owners retrofitting bus heaters, which run off engine hot water, so why not one that is more suitable for the Atomic 4?

Steve

[keelcooler]

Under cabin sole radiant please.

[sastanley]

now we're talking there, keelcooler!

The floor was a little chilly this weekend, and it was 55 degrees when we woke up :p

[lat 64]

Keelcooler,
I seriously thought long and hard about how I could do that.
I've put a couple of those systems in houses over the years and that type of system would be terrific in a boat.
I think this would be best left to new construction though. It would be so easy to put in while the boat is being built. Imagine padding around in bare feet on the cooler evenings. And the bilge would dry out and corrosion would be reduced. and...and...and...

[Jesse Delanoy]

Shawn,

I would have contacted you, but had no way to do so! We anchored in Mill Creek on a Sunday evening (across from the tugboat facility, and just a little farther up the creek), expecting to move farther south on Monday (Labor Day). Went out and it was so rough we came back in - had a water in the gas tank issue (someone who shall remain nameless forgot to put the gas cap on after fueling that morning, and we took a LOT of splash over the deck), so we tied up at Zahnisers, had Billy pull the water out of the tank next morning (never having had any engine trouble from the water - not enough water to get sucked up the pickup tube), and due to forecasts of gale winds and five foot seas, stayed on the pier until Saturday, then headed home. On a nine day trip, we sailed about one and a half days.

[67c&ccorv]

Yep, interested - how much?

[sastanley]

Shawn,

I would have contacted you, but had no way to do so! We anchored in Mill Creek on a Sunday evening (across from the tugboat facility, and just a little farther up the creek), expecting to move farther south on Monday (Labor Day). Went out and it was so rough we came back in - had a water in the gas tank issue (someone who shall remain nameless forgot to put the gas cap on after fueling that morning, and we took a LOT of splash over the deck), so we tied up at Zahnisers, had Billy pull the water out of the tank next morning (never having had any engine trouble from the water - not enough water to get sucked up the pickup tube), and due to forecasts of gale winds and five foot seas, stayed on the pier until Saturday, then headed home. On a nine day trip, we sailed about one and a half days.

Hi Jesse! Just saw this post...don't know how I missed it before. I think that October weekend we were in the "other" Mill Creek north of the Solomons Bridge, although your anchorage by the tug boat hangout is the final stretch on my way to the dock. I seem to recall from my 'boat notes' that I pulled the stick the next weekend.

Billy is on the "Good Guy" list here at Moyer and apparently the local resident A-4 professional if I ever need him. The dockmaster as Zahniser's is a friend of mine, she could have found me, except she works M-F.
We'll have to coordinate better next time. I remember working on my radio that weekend too, I might even have had the VHF on. :p

[ArtJ]

I would think most boats get more than enough heat from the engine
itself. In my case, a Classic Tartan 34C sloop has the engine in the
middle of the main saloon which provides (sometimes) more heat than
one would ever desire or wish for.

[Out Patient]

What do you have in mind?

I currently have the Force 10 Diesel heater in my CAL 29, it is finniky and cloges up after a lot of use. Other than that, it will warm up the cabin and maybe the V berth on a 36 degree evening. I have one of those fans from Cabellas that as it gets hot it circulates the hot air.

It runs off a pressurized tank, you can not run it all night long. It will run out of pressure and soot up.

[romantic comedy]

i had a force 10 catalytic propane heater in my tartan from 96 till recently. I rarely used it but was nice for the ICW run which i did several decembers ago.
dont ever sleep with the heater on-you may not get a chance to sail the next day
Hot water would come in handy for both heating the cabin and for washing -showers. I have a heater core from a ford van (1979) it is simple and could be plummed in with the fwc side. but that really only blows heat. what could be done is a tank with copper pipe running thru it. Taking the hot water off of the engine and returning it can be tricky to keep the engine at 180.
I built a tank on a van that took radiator water and some approx 1/2 -5/8 tubing maybe 10 feet long coiled (big coil) in the tank. it got hot quick.
also i dismantled a store bought 6 gal dual water heater. the coil for water heating was so small it was laughable but compact.
now that i live in florida i need air condition- i am working on that. i need to take a household 5000 btu unit and rework it to cool my vee berth and run on a honda or other quiet generator.
just another project. I would like to find a water cooled coil (condenser) instead of the standard air cooled fan that blows out of all house and window a/c units. The col side (expansion) would seill be fan driven (ducted maybe)
After charley I put a 10000 btu a/c unit in the betroom and the tag says it draws 7.5 amps (at 110-125). i was on a few boats that had counter mounted a/c units they had the water cooling option. Also there are units that just circulate seawater into a coil (radiator) and just blow a fan. for milider temps that could work. not here in the state of moderate oven

but I am heading north again permanently soon and heat may once again be my concern. it seems that when it it too hot to sail in fl then people dont sail-n=mostly the wind also dies. we had up o 30 knots this weekend- it was great washed off the rail and cabin

[msauntry]

Heater Craft sells a "marine" heater core and a standard heater core. I think a standard one would work fine since a heater shouldn't get much splashing inside your cabin anyway. Plus, the only difference seems to be the shroud (alum vs. steel) which would be easy to touch up if you get corrosion.

The heater core in my van isn't worth replacing when it clogged up, so I ordered a core from Summit Racing, the "house" brand. They ended up sending me the Heater Craft standard unit. It is well built. Cost under $140. When the van goes, I'm keeping the unit and putting it in the boat, after I get FWC of course.

[wlevin]

What about cutting out the extra step of piping hot engine water to a heater with fan. Is it reasonable to install some sort of small fan in the engine compartment that can blow warm air out of the compartment into the cabin through holes or louvres cut in the engine box? Of course, electric fans and gas fumes play poorly together, so is there some sort of special spark protected fan or remotely mounted fan-and-hose system that might work?

Bill and Jeanne
T-34C #453
Otter

[msauntry]

Not safe enough since CO2 could blow into the living areas.

[hanleyclifford]

I'm not exactly sure how this got resurrected but I would make the following suggestion. There are a number of forced coolant heaters available for boats and RVs. I have a Red Dot on board Destiny but it has a weakness in that the core mesh over the copper tubing is aluminum, a big no-no in galvanic series-intelligence-land. If Moyer Marine developed a unit with all marine grade materials (ie electromagnetically compatible), I would get in line to buy one.

[rjm]

I have ared Red dot hooked up for cabin heat and as stated before in an earler post it does work .. but the A4 just does not produce enough heat... my heater is in the middle of the boat and even with wrap over the heater hoses its just a slight warm never gets hot and prob would not keep up in colder weather
At best it seems a better raditor and heat exchanger than a heater my boat is a fwc boat and their must be better way..
it would prob do just as well to leave the engine door open and let what heat of the moter do the same thing..just my thoughts and am open to other options

[hanleyclifford]

The Red Dot heater needs to have 180 degree coolant AND a strong pump especially if the run is long. The MM 502 is the best coolant pump I've ever used.

[hanleyclifford]

If you are having trouble getting any heat out of your Red Dot heater, try routing the antifreeze to the heater directly from the exit on the manifold. I know this sounds unorthodox, but I run the coolant without any valves from the manifold to the Red Dot, thence to the hot water heater (engine exhanger inside), and finally to the exchangers. My only valve in the system is the bypass from the Dole thermostat. If you want to get anything out of the heater you must run a thermostat.

[lat 64]

My heater is just as Hanley suggests(see earlier post) except I have ball valves everywhere. They don't seem to affect the flow much. I get pretty good heat, but not like a car.
The engine runs at ~180, and I can divert more coolant to the heater if I want with the valves.

Getting the coolant temp up is key. If Hanley is correct that the Redot needs 180F, then a lot of raw-water-cooled boats will not work well for hooking up a cabin heater.

Winter is coming,
Russ

[hanleyclifford]

If I were going to build and market a cabin heater for the A4 fleet two considerations would be at the top of the list. First, the core should be all salt water compatible materials (the casing could be high temp plastic). Second, a shut off valve incorporated right handy at the unit. The valve need only shut off one hose if the heater is in it's own loop; this would have the effect of "dead ending" the heater without having to go into the engine room.

[rjm]

Have an A4 Fwc with a Red Dot hooked up and works pretty good as a heater or an engine cooler..looking to figure out how to not have to keep re-adjusting the ball valve prior to the Hx and get the same heat from idle to full power any thoughts ..

[hanleyclifford]

Sounds like you have your heater in a separate (parallel) loop. How about an in line thermostat in the heater loop?

[rjm]

Already have a thermostat ...do I remove the one on the engine and install a dole at my ball valve location

[hanleyclifford]

In order to get decent heat out of the heater first you need to stabilize water temp throughout the rpm range at 180 F. This might mean a different thermostat.

[ILikeRust]

My cabin heater is the little propane camp stove next to the sink. Which probably needs replacing at this point (the stove, not the sink).

[Bobgrif]

With a cabin heater using the cooling water from the engine means you have to run the engine for probably quite some time to make a difference in the cabin, seems a very expensive and environmentally unfriendly way to do it! Yes, if you've been running the engine for quite a while it will work but how often do we do that, especially when it's so cold you need to heat the cabin. Simple solution is to plug in at the dock and run an electric fan/heater.
In a previous boat I had one of these catalytic propane made-for-boats cabin heaters, bought from the UK, worked great!
Anybody know of a device that one can place on the stove burner (like a toaster) that works well to dissipate the heat?

Bob (sv 'Dovetale', C&C Corvette, Ontario, Canada)

[edwardc]

Anybody know of a device that one can place on the stove burner (like a toaster) that works well to dissipate the heat?

Bob (sv 'Dovetale', C&C Corvette, Ontario, Canada)

A couple of clay flowerpots, turned upside down, work great, especially if you can train a small cabin fan to blow air across them. The downside is that with propane stoves, the combustion process produces a lot of water vapor. This can result in every fiberglass surface dripping like a rain forest by morning!