Elmer MADE IT!

[Trumplestiltskin]

The slip has been claimed. Unfortunately, I burned the motor out during the channel run to the slip. (Thank you Camp Peary DOD water police.) Quite an adventure, thank you to everyone!

Now.

What comes first?

[ndutton]

Unfortunately, I burned the motor out during the channel run to the slip.

Now.

What comes first?

Depends, what's the budget?

[sastanley]

right...and 'burned up' - needs a little more detail :(

[domagami]

Elmer - you're killing us here.

Burned the motor out??? Unless it was truly on fire....

Come on, cough up the details.

[Trumplestiltskin]

Budget is 350 dollars every two weeks.

Burned up means that I had it started every day for 7 days and ran it for 20 to 30 min, ran it out of starting mooring, ran it halfway through the end channel run and it quit. now it will not start, crank, turn over, or anything. Should I keep this thing in here? Or switch to a diesel?

[rigspelt]

So, it stopped running, not burned out. You need more reason than that to be thinking new engine. Time to troubleshoot instead? I'd be thinking refit first, unless I found a clear reason to abandon the engine.

[High Hopes]

Budget is 350 dollars every two weeks.

Burned up means that I had it started every day for 7 days and ran it for 20 to 30 min, ran it out of starting mooring, ran it halfway through the end channel run and it quit. now it will not start, crank, turn over, or anything. Should I keep this thing in here? Or switch to a diesel?

A new anything is at least $8K, probably closer to $12K installed. Welcome to the forum. :)

[ndutton]

Should I keep this thing in here? Or switch to a diesel?Don't you dare!

I'd suggest going through as much testing and diagnosis as possible before spending on replacement parts. That way when it's time to start spending it will be spent efficiently.

Won't even crank? Any noise from the starter, clicking or humming?

[hanleyclifford]

Please, let us not hear the "D" word again on this campus. Now that your prize is safe in the slip, let the team talk you thru the diagnosis and as we go along the solution will suggest itself. Worst case scenario is a short block for around 3K or a complete engine for 5K - way, way less than the "D" alternative. Hope your short trip whetted your appetite for more sailing adventure!

[sastanley]

Trump, settle..you asked us to help you get the boat to this slip. That was accomplished (with some help). We'll get the motor running again.

I found a hole in my shaft tube today...anything is repairable. I may need to plan a trip down there...I think you are about 3.5 hours away.

[Mark Millbauer]

My brother just spent over $10,000 replacing a perfectly running Yanmar diesel with a more powerful Universal model. It would have cost even more to make the switch from gas to diesel. That said, if you do make the switch, can I have your old A4?

Mark
C27 Solution

[marthur]

If your motor quit and won't crank, you might be looking at a simple electrical problem (like a failed connection, broken wire, etc...)

I had the very same syptoms on a car once. When my car died it quit suddenly and the key would not do anything (no click, no starter, no run). The problem was a bad battery cable.

[Trumplestiltskin]

I am just disappointed I guess, I mean I thought she could make it. Ok so back to the newly learned engine abc's:

Fuel, Air, Spark, Compression.

No crank no start with charged batteries means no spark correct?

[Kelly]

Actually, if you're not even able to crank the engine over (silence when you turn the key), follow Marthur's advice: check the electrical connections at the back of the solenoid (piggy-back on the starter) and see if you get 12v when you turn the key. If you do, your problem may be right there in a faulty solenoid. If not, work backwards toward the batteries and see where you find current.

If the problem is electrical and upstream of the solenoid, your hole isn't very deep...

[sastanley]

Trumps,
First off...if you haven't done so already, call up Ken in parts and order the Moyer Manual..it is the A4 bible. This will help because we can all reference it during this process & be 'on the same page'.

The wiring harness (all the wires bundled at the engine that travel aft to the gauge pod/key, etc.) are often a known issue on Catalina 30's. Since the engine is in the middle of the boat, the wire runs are longer than average, and the wires are undersized by today's. There is a big plug connection near the engine (mine is right next to the starter) and another connection halfway to the gauges..mine was behind the aft drawers at the back end of the galley (if yours are still there) near the fuel tank.

These connections can develop a 'hot short'..meaning they work for a while and then a short is created as the wires heat up. There are some reports that a third connection may also live in the bilge and get wet sometimes..but I traced mine and only found the two connections..On my list is replacement, but so far cleaning the connections has been good enough.

Clean these connections up first, using some of that spray contact/electrical cleaner from Home Depot/Lowe's. When you put them back together use some of the spray electrical lubricant they sell on the same shelf.

This troubleshooting will be detailed and a pain in the you-know-what. The more details you provide the better (i.e. note how Kelly explained what his version of 'no crank' means) - there are different things to try whether you hear absolutely zero, or a click, or engine crank and no start, or i-am-trying-to-turn-over-but-the-battery-is-acting-like-it-is-dead, etc..all these sounds and at what times you hear them are critical to the troubleshooting process and may each have a different solution.

Stick with us buddy, we're not done yet. And if you do something silly like waste $10,000+ on a diesel, & Mark doesn't buy your A4, I will! :rolleyes:

[roadnsky]

Trump-
I'm going to chime in here and echo my shipmates' comments.
Stick with us and you'll be surprised how fast AND how much you learn!

One suggestion...
Don't worry about asking ANY question!
In fact, be selfish and be a pain in the arse. Ask a LOT of questions!
It will help the group to help you more.
AND there aren't any dumb ones.

We've all been where you are at one point and you (we) are very fortunate to have this incredible tool literally at our fingertips.

Finally, if you re-power with a diesel, you don't really solve anything.
You'll have to learn that engine too.
PLUS, you will still have the wiring, cooling, tranny, plumbing, prop, shaft, etc issues to deal with anyway AFTER spending a huge amount of boat bucks.

If you'll put in the time, there is nothing like the confidence you'll gain with the knowledge of this great engine. ;)

[domagami]

Elmer;

Like it or not, you are now our pet project. You will conform, you will be assimilated. Resistance is... well, besides futile, it's slightly entertaining for us.

Chin up, you HAD it running, so you know it works. Repeatedly.

You may still have problem areas to deal with later (aka 'preventative maintenance'), but right now you have an immediate issue that could turn out to be fairly minor, even trivial.

You had a battery that turned the engine over on the day of the move, yes? So it's PROBABLY not the battery, but you should monitor it. Have a meter to check it? I've found it helpful to have one on board. If nothing else, it will settle your mind if you can take this component out of the concern, and let you move on down the chain to find the issue.

Others here are better experts, but it sounds like a connection. Make sure those are secure. If you lose an electrical connection while underway it can be bad news for the system. (eg. if you have a master switch, don't flip it off while the engine is running, etc.)

Make sure you have photos of every angle, and label each part with tape or something before you start taking things apart.

Am guessing you'll be running again shortly, and dishing out advice on this forum by this time next year.

Best,

MD

[David Masury]

Like the others, don't give on the A4. As you go along checking the various connections etc... take you battery out and have it checked... it just may not be good, I just replaced two.

David

[Baltimore Sailor]

At its most basic: if you turn the key and nothing -- I mean absolutely nothing -- happens, it ain't the engine. It's upstream: battery, connections, solenoid, etc.

From there it's easy. Check the voltage on the battery: 12.5 V? GOOD. Less? BAD. (Edit: this may not be completely true. My battery showed under 11V yesterday and she fired right up; so let's say "less than 10.5V" as a lower limit.)

If BAD, get new battery and try again. If GOOD, test cable from battery to switch (if you have one; if not, from battery to starter): continuity? GOOD. No continuity? BAD.

If BAD, replace cable and try again. If GOOD... well, I don't know how to test a solenoid, but if it's getting 12V and nothing is happening, that's BAD.

You see how the process works.

Now, if you get to where you're getting 12V to the starter and it's turning over and nothing's firing, we start a new process. But let's get through this one first.

Have at it!

[Baltimore Sailor]

This post is for absolutely no reason other than to get my post count to 400.

Carry on.

[lat 64]

Howdy,
Engine died suddenly and won't even crank.
Hmm.
Either ignition switch wire fell off while motoring or.,..
You tourqued the pooch and forgot to open the seawater intake in your excitement to get to the slip; thus overheating and seizing the engine rings solid. This second option is bad but still not a deal breaker. Personally I don't think this happened because you would have had more symptoms of overheating and engine failure before it finally quit. Did you?

I vote for the first; that the wires are bad somewhere.
Don't rule out two or more problems to show up at the same time in an old engine—ie. wires falling apart all over the engine room.

Shawn seems like your best help right now and I would stock up on beer for him.
As far as diesels are concerned:
I also like diesels so I look at this as an economics question.

$900 boat + $10,000 diesel = $11,000(or more) old Catalina w/new running engine.

$900 boat + $5,000 Atomic-4 total rebuild = $11,000(or more) old Catalina w/running engine.

$900 boat + $2,000 Atomic-4 overhaul = $11,000(or more) old Catalina w/running engine.

$900 boat + $20 ignition switch = $11,000(or more) old Catalina w/running engine.

We all worked hard to get ours running and I think that it would be great if we could pass on tips to help you avoid too much exasperation.

Good luck and have fun with your new declared minor,

Russ

[Baltimore Sailor]

Howdy,
Engine died suddenly and won't even crank.
Hmm.
Either ignition switch wire fell off while motoring or.,..
You tourqued the pooch and forgot to open the seawater intake in your excitement to get to the slip; thus overheating and seizing the engine rings solid. [snip]
Russ

Even if the engine was totally seized, wouldn't you still hear the click as the solenoid tried to engage?

[lat 64]

Balt,
Right. We just need more info. Mister Trumple needs to produce a white paper complete with observations, data sets, empirical evidence, color of engine, and anecdotal analog comparisons to give us the jive to sift through.

Maybe like Car Talk. "So Bethany, what sound did it make when it went kablooey"

[sastanley]

Those car talk guys are hilarious.

Trumplestilskin needs to go read up the posts from when "QuickMick" started here..we got him going - he's probably toured the entire TX coast by now. :)

[roadnsky]

$900 boat + $10,000 diesel = $11,000(or more) old Catalina w/new running engine.

$900 boat + $5,000 Atomic-4 total rebuild = $11,000(or more) old Catalina w/running engine.

$900 boat + $2,000 Atomic-4 overhaul = $11,000(or more) old Catalina w/running engine.

$900 boat + $20 ignition switch = $11,000(or more) old Catalina w/running engine.


Russ-
How come all of your possible solutions always add up to 11K? :confused:
Do you work for the government?! :p

[lat 64]

$11,000 is about how much a grad student can spend on a car and still have dosh for the pub. That was the only criteria I used.

New survey:
How much would you guys pay for a mid seventies Cat 30 with a running engine?

[ndutton]

How much would you guys pay for a mid seventies Cat 30 with a running engine?
It depends:

Engine painted all purdy?
Electronic ignition?
FWC?
Indigo prop?
Tall or short impeller?
Ubiquitous manifold hot spot?
AC's or Autolites?
MMI manual on board?

and in consideration of another thread currently running,

Hole in the shaft log? (sorry Shawn, but we're thinking about you)

[roadnsky]

It depends:
Hole in the shaft log? (sorry Shawn, but we're thinking about you)

If you asked Shawn, that hole should be about a 10k discount?
Double sorry Shawn. We ARE thinking about you... ;)


(Sorry for the hijack Trumple. We're just waiting for you to get back to us)

[sastanley]

New survey:
How much would you guys pay for a mid seventies Cat 30 with a running engine?

$10.00 ? That's what I paid (1/2 of the $20 lunch I bought when the title was signed over.) No offense taken, and as you all know, I am still paying :rolleyes:

There is a huge disparity in prices due to the wide range of overall vessel condition. Even though it looked bad, the engine did run in my boat, but really only needed some TLC (clean carb, fuel pump & fuel system) were the main improvements. However, I am sure if a surveyor had looked at my boat, he would have recommended I run away.

[lat 64]

$10.00 ? However, I am sure if a surveyor had looked at my boat, he would have recommended I run away.

Yea, My boat was a bit more worn than I first thought too.

I really have no idea what boats are worth in your part of the world.
All this price talk was to make a point about the value of giving that ol' a-4 one more chance.
But, if a diesel has to be installed then it might still be a good plan because Elmer was got pretty cheap to begin with.

Shawn, I didn't know you got such a deal too. I paid 16,000(Alaska is a tight market) for my vintage plastic boat and I rationalized at the time that I was getting a sailing boat for the price of a bare hull, so all the stuff I have to fix is not getting me down. I've often said, to get a $20,000 boat you have to start with $40,000.
Back in the seventies I read that people were buying boats as investments! I wonder what they were smoking?

I think we really highjacked this thread for good. I think the host has slipped out the door and left us to blathering:o

Hope you are sailing soon,
Russ

[Baltimore Sailor]

[snip] Back in the seventies I read that people were buying boats as investments! I wonder what they were smoking?

You've got the cart before the horse: it's because people were smoking stuff in the '70s that a boat was a good investment!

:D:D:D:eek:

[Trumplestiltskin]

Ok, sorry I havent been on in a bit (i was taking advice about schoolwork first) and after a couple of rainstorms i noticed some nasty port side and forward hatch leaks. so I am scrubbing and sealing, but would like to get the engine reliably running so i dont miss the season....

batteries fully charged, but it looks like one of the wires is loose from the bottom of the fuel pump? does that go to the alternator? i dont know anything really so i guess i should just read stuff for now. i will get pictures hopefully this weekend and we can go from there. thanks for the encouragement guys, but I am seriously close to just paying someone to fix it....maybe shawn?

[sastanley]

Trumps..I don't really have time to fix your boat either...You need to go check out my Indigo thread. My boat is on the hard right now with no prop shaft in it so I am missing the sailing season too.

I will offer to help wherever I can, but I am just a weekend hack like you ! :D

This is a process. It takes time...you don't "need" the engine to go anywhere..that's what the big stick is for. The leaks only rot the bulkhead faster but you'll get to those too. I;ve had my boat for a year and a half and I just got the window in the head fixed..I put a bucket under it for the first 18 months.

Pics help so we are all on the same page...as an example..there shouldn't be any electrical wires going to the alternator from the fuel pump...but there may be some to the coil. We'll figure it out..just remember to grab the camera...that's half the battle!
:cool:

[ArtJ]

Have you looked at the ammeter when trying to crank?
If you see the ammeter peg negative.
It is possible you have a shorted or frozen starter.

Also have you tried running the engine over by hand using the
hand crank or pto belt if you have fresh water cooling.
Removing the plugs makes this a lot easier.

That way you can tell if the engine is seized

Good luck

Art

[CalebD]

Besides spark, fuel and air your engine needs batteries with enough juice in them AND a working starter motor to get an old engine running.
I would add to this that you need 'clean fuel' or 'fresh fuel'.
If your engine wont even crank the gang here has pinpointed your problem to either your wiring harness or perhaps even your starter motor. I am pretty sure there are ways of debugging the starter motor by 'hot wiring' it to the battery(s) but I have not had to do this yet. If you did try to hot wire the starter motor with some spare lengths of wire you would be able to prove conclusively that either: (A) the wiring harness is bad if the motor will turn over when hot wired, or (B) the starter motor failed when wired directly to the batts and nothing happens. Of course this all assumes that your batteries have enough juice in them to run the starter motor. Do you have some kind of shore power at your new slip where you could plug in a battery charger?

The gang here are really pretty incredibly astute about matters of the A4. I recently had a different problem from yours where our engine had been quite reliable for the 8 years we've owned the boat but began get very difficult and then impossible to start; engine would crank but would not catch. My problem was revealed to be old fuel with water accumulating in the carb which was what the gang here diagnosed given the info I gave them. Give them as much info as you can and they will get your engine ticking again.

You don't have the money to do the conversion from gasoline to 'that other fuel'. In fact an A4 mechanic would also cost you a lot of money as they can charge up to $80/hour (+ travel). There is a good A4 mechanic near the mid Chessy named Will Sibley who's number you will find in the 'Good Guys' section of the MMI website. I'm not sure what his rate is but he would have to travel to get to your boat; just guessing here I would think that a 4 hour visit by him would set you back about $320 plus any parts. It could be money well spent if you could be there with him when he does his thing but most of us here think that we can save you a lot on labor charges if you can help diagnose the problem by documenting it here (white papers, photos) and roll up your sleeves and do the work yourself.

If there is any possibility that you overheated the engine wouldn't it be prudent to squirt some Marvel Mystery Oil into each cylinder after removing the plugs? This should help loosen up the rings and falls into the "can't hurt" category of maintenance items.
Perhaps obvious to some here would be to check the condition of your raw water pump impeller. If your engine has a heat exchanger (HX) another annual maintenance chore is to replace the zinc bolt in it AND/OR open it up every 5 years to remove any sections of zinc that fall off and disturb the flow of the cooling water. Here is a very compelling picture of how badly fouled a HX can become with old zincs: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/image/107682802
The 'brain trust' here wants to help you. They just need more background info and pictures really are worth more than 1000 words.
If your engine ran before it can be made to run again.

[Trumplestiltskin]

how do I hand crank an engine? where does that process begin? does it involve some special tool?

[hanleyclifford]

Go to the online catalogue "miscellaneous parts". for a view of available engine cranks.

[roadnsky]

Go to the online catalogue "miscellaneous parts". for a view of available engine cranks.

Here's the part Hanley is talking about...
http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?search=action&category=MISC&keywords=all&template=Templates/B000_storebuilder.html

There are other ways to turn it, but this tool makes it very easy.
On your Cat, do you have good access to the FLYWHEEL? Many Catalinas have limited access if I recall...

[sastanley]

ELMER, spring the $$ for the nicer one...In theory you can start the motor with it if the starter were to fail (there are you tube videos so it works!)

I picked one up this spring and it has been invaluable for turning the motor over for adjusting valves, etc.. It just barely clears the cabin sole with the bilge cover removed.

To answer Jerry's question, you have to cut a hole in the engine box though it isn't obtrusive...some boats have a door, but mine doesn't - I cut a 1.25" hole with a hole saw & then smoothed it out with a Dremel tool.

http://www.moyermarine.com/images/234mmi.jpg

[ArtJ]

Warning danger

The hand crank is used only, repeat only to turn over the engine with
coil disconnected and or plugs removed. It is not designed for starting
and should never be attempted to use for starting.

The starting crank has a different slot which allows it to disconnect once
the engine fires. Otherwise, it could become a dangeous missile.

As someone mentioned elsewhere, if attempting to start, the thumb
must NOT be curled around the crank else your hand and or arm could
end up broken!!!

[Trumplestiltskin]

pretty sure this is bad right?

[Kelly]

If you're talking about McDonald's: yes, it's very bad.

Otherwise, did this pipe go to an oil drain plug outlet (or other oil access point)? Do you have oil in the bilge?

Couldn't this failure be at the heart of your no-start problem? No oil pressure means no starting if you have an oil pressure sensor.

[keelcooler]

My drain pipe rotted off also. That's the rear block water jacket drain extension pipe. It is made of steel. MMI sells a brass replacement pipe.

[sastanley]

Trumps...you can likely source that part locally...The OEM drain tube was reported to be galvanized steel and they don't last. Mine was epoxied back on by the P.O. - I removed mine and drilled & tapped the next size up because I had a lot of corrosion..If you are lucky, the threads in the block are still good, so you can get a $5 tap that is correct (1/8" NPT) from the hardware store, and the $5 6" brass pipe nipple (with threads on each end) and you'll be good to go.

Some people simply put a small cap in the block there, but the 6" tube does make draining for winterization easier.

Here is the discussion from my thread that is exactly the same & may save you some trouble:
Shawn's drain issue (http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2738&highlight=block+drain+pipe+nipple&page=4)
Check mine out from last year.
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=845&stc=1&d=1226524353

[roadnsky]

I'm inclined to agree with Kelly. I think he meant McDonald's! :p
Trump,
Give us a little MORE info and pics.

Help us help you...

[Trumplestiltskin]

ok. how exactly do i get the rotted part out that is still screwed in to the block? should i drill it out somehow?

back to the other problem....

got the starter off to check the bendix gear? looks fine and turns over when not attached to flywheel. removed flywheel coverplate and tried to get it to spin, no dice. removed plugs and sprayed that anti rust lube stuff down there maybe it will free up...

Is it possible for the transmission to lock the engine? How would I check regarding that possibility?

[Trumplestiltskin]

more info? I have no idea what I'm doing, and I probably broke this engine. I took a picture of the pipe that corroded off the block. what other pictures would you like? Seriously.

[Marian Claire]

Stay cool. Do you have a temp gauge? If so what was the temp when the engine stopped? After it stopped did you try and crank and it did not fire? If so, then water could have backed up and flooded/ seized the engine. Is there absolutely no movement when you try to turn the engine with the hand crank? A-4s are very resilient so give use all the info you can, do a replay of the event. Easy for me to say but some little detail could be the key. Continue to soak the pistons/valves with MMO. Dan S/V Marian Claire

[sastanley]

Trumps....as Dan said...cool out for a bit...we'll get it back. We need succinct and precise info...easy, brother.

Remember, it's a sailboat...as much as we love Atomic4's, it only helps us get to our destination. The boat is still good with a (temporarily) broken motor..

Replay the events of the delivery and try to relay to us what happened...we'll help you figure it out.

[H3LlIoN]

FYI...I am the solution to Trump's issues. I did not realize that Benny was reg'd on here, but the boat that I have been working on is the same one that he was referring to. I AM an engine guy (although no sailor by any stretch of the term,) so we have partnered to get this beast on the water. To date, the lower bearings were seized on the original engine. I believe that he had sailed her without opening the cooling system, but that was before my time, so I cannot directly comment. I DO know that the crankcase was full of what we engine guys refer to as mayonnaise, so I suspect that something cracked as well. He couldn't afford the cost of me line-boring and rebuilding. Regardless, old engine out, new one in (courtesy of a member on here in the classifieds.) At present time, he and I are off to play disc golf. Later today I am hoping to align the engine and rewire the electronics for the starter and alternator. I still need to track down graded bolts for the coupling, which is made more difficult by the fact that I can't find the original three bolts. Also, the original alt was a one wire delco, and the new is the two wire motorola. Should be a snap though. I will probably source the indigo ignition kit as well as a new fuel pump, given the issues previously stated with the current pump. In the meantime, Benny will be pumping a fuel ball. :D

[sastanley]

H3 - that is an interesting turn of events.

You can get some mayo in the crankcase by cranking for too long during a non-start incident..it backs up the hot exhaust section and goes downhill from there.

Someone here knows the coupling bolt details. I can hunt them down if needed. I want to say 3/8" fine thread x something like 1.75", but that is off the top of my head, sitting at work. :rolleyes:

[H3LlIoN]

Plan now is to get her ready to sail, and I'll rebuild the original A4 in my spare time, then swap it back in and rebuild this new one as a spare, or maybe sell. Dunno yet.

I tried searching forums for the bolt specs, but couldn't find 'em, so if noone chimes in, please lemme know when you get home. Thanks!

- JM