starting problem....

[sailhog]

Howdy folks....
I'm not having any luck getting my A-4 started due to a lack of spark to the plugs. I've replaced the coil, distributor cap, rotor, points, spark plugs and wires... but still no spark at the plugs. When I replaced the points, I rotated the engine until it was on one of the cam lobes so that there was gap... I think I got that right.

The negative terminal of the coil has two negative leads to it -- one coming from the distributor, the other from the oil pressure safety switch. And this is as it should be, correct?

Any thoughts from the learned panel? I apprecaite any and all help. Gotta git the old girl back in the water before the yard kicks me out....

Thanks again!
Dwight

[ButchPetty]

You didn't say if you had spark at the points. If you got power at the coil, you should have spark at the points. If you got spark at the points you should have spark at the plugs. So just trace back wards. Really easy. Or start at the coil which is where I would start. :)

[sailhog]

Thanks Butch. I have spark coming from the coil. How do I tell if I have spark at the points?

Appreciate your help, amigo.

[Dave Neptune]

Sailhog, if you have spark at the coil you have power (spark?) at the points.
You may need to bypass your oil pres sendor for the electric fuel pump. If you don't create enough O/P no power, if so equiped.

Dave Neptune :cool:

[ButchPetty]

You should just be able to pull the points apart from the closed position and see a spark with the ignition on. It may look weak, but you should see one. If not you need to examine the coil for failure. And also check all your plug and coil wires for corrosion since you said it had been setting for a while. Could just be bad connections.

[ArtJ]

Probably best to pull them apart with something non conducting to avoid
shock?

[msmith10]

The oil pressure safety switch won't affect spark. If no oil pressure, it keeps the fuel pump from energizing.

[sailhog]

Thanks, everyone... I'll be back out at the yard tomorrow, the next day, the next.... I have a feeling I'll be back on the board with questions... lots and lots of questions....

By the way, the coil, cap, points, rotor, wires and plugs are all new. Just can't figure out what's keeping the juice from the plugs....

[ArtJ]

Sometimes one of the wires that attach to the points could be shorting out.
or broken, especially on delco caps where the wire goes thru the cap.

Regards
Art

[hanleyclifford]

The oil pressure switch should not be on the negative coil terminal - only the points and tach lead if so equipped.

[sailhog]

Thanks gentlemen. Please post any observations, suggestions, etc.
Dwight

[hanleyclifford]

You did not mentioned what the gap at the points was. It must be set with a feeler gauge - try .020".

[sailhog]

Thanks, Cap. I feel like I'm getting somewhere....

[msmith10]

I second Art's suggestion to check the wire from the distributor to the coil (the little one from the (-) coil terminal to the points). I've seen that go bad more than once.

[sailhog]

Thanks again, gents. The only ignition component that I haven't replaced is the condensor. What are the chances that this is shot? The boat has been dry docked for a 11 months and experienced some water intrusion into the cabin. It was nice and steamy below decks for a couple of months....

[ndutton]

The oil pressure switch should not be on the negative coil terminal - only the points and tach lead if so equipped.

I want to re-emphasize Hanley's observation. I got into this thread late and from your first post I was looking for someone to mention it. One side of the oil pressure switch goes to the + on the coil, the other side of the oil pressure switch goes to the + on the electric fuel pump.

[Maurice]

You may as well change the condenser out also..for what it costs. Let us know how you made out with it.

[ButchPetty]

Also need good solid grounds on the coil and condenser. Especially prone to loosing its ground is that little condenser......yep, that one lonely little screw.:)

And more important than all the above goodies on the list is your water flow. If you have water hooked up as your doing all this engine spinning be careful as not to let it back up in your motor.
And last but not least......you didn't mention how long it had been sitting on the hard. If it has been a really long time, and your not completely sure of its condition, you may want to physically put your vision on that little rubber impeller once you get her fired up. ( Take this from my recent personal experience. ) :)

[ndutton]

Also need good solid grounds on the coil and condenser.

Uh, no. No ground at the coil. Maybe this drawing will help.

3340

[ArtJ]

You may as well change the condenser out also..for what it costs. Let us know how you made out with it.

The condenser could easily be the cause. Suggest you change ASAP.


Regards

Art

[Dave Neptune]

Dwight, did you try to "hot wire" the ignition? That is an easy test. If the hot wire works, it would indicate a switch or a bad wire.
Double check the wiring per Hanley's advise, I have seen more than once the ignition wiring go through the cut out switch. At this point it is worth a check.

Dave Neptune:cool:

[JOHN COOKSON]

Did you file the new points? They may not be conducting.

Try a new condenser as others have suggested.

An easy test of the coil and points: with the key on and the points closed pull the center wire out of the distributor cap and hold it about 1/2" from ground (the engine). Flick the points open and let them snap close. There should be a spark. Keep fixing till you can get a spark in this manner.

Don't leave the key on for a long period of time when the engine isn't running or you will fry the coil.

TRUE GRIT

[sailhog]

First of all.... thanks to everyone here... I really appreciate the incredible response.

So.... just got back from the boat, and still couldn't get her started. However, I removed the main wire from the coil to the distributor, held it near the head, and turned the engine over. There was no spark. NOthing at all. This is a real mystery, as it's a brand new coil -- just one week old. Could the coil not be getting spark after all? Something is up with the coil, or perhaps upstream of the coil....

Any suggestions, insight?

Furthermore, I got the points set at .020, corrected the wiring on the coil leads, checked the wire from the distributor to the negative terminal of the coil (fine), and ordered a condensor from Don.

Thanks again, gents.
Dwight

[JOHN COOKSON]

Sailhog
Are you getting power from the key to the coil+ terminal?
Are you getting power at the coil- terminal?

Use a meter or spark test to ground.

Is the wire from the key connected to the coil + terminal?

Demount the condenser and use your meter to see if the center lead is shorted to the outer case.

Answer these questions. We'll tell you what to do next.

TRUE GRIT

[sailhog]

John,
Thanks... I'll go through your checklist tomorrow and will report back. May have some questions for you regarding how to carry out these tests... such as, how do you tell if there is power from the key to each of the coil terminals.... I'm assuming I should turn key on, and then what? Apologies for the dense questions....
Thanks again,
Dwight

[ndutton]

Please describe in as much detail as possible how you set the .020 point gap.

[sailhog]

Neil, I turned over the engine until a corner of one of the cam lobes opened up the points. Once open up, I took a feeler gauge and slid it down to the .020 wedge. Then I tightened down the points screw to secure it in place.

The points are new. Before doing the above, I took an emory board and lightly filed the new points.

Does that tell you guys anything?

Thanks again,
D

[ndutton]

Sounds right to me. To double check you should make sure the points are closing at the dist cam flat. Beyond that, John's checklist is the way to go.

Good luck and keep the intake thru-hull closed until there's fire.

[Don Moyer]

Dwight, did you remember to remove the electric fuel pump lead from the negative terminal of the coil?

[ndutton]

I modified the previous drawing to include an electric fuel pump and oil pressure safety switch.
3347

[Maurice]

I'd recheck the wiring and if it is correct put another coil on there and try it. Might be a bad coil.

[sailhog]

Don, I removed the fuel pump lead from the negative coil terminal.

Maurice, the coil is brand new, but I will check....

Ndutton, that schematic is nice.... Thanks, captains.


I did a compression check, and got good compression on #1 and #2, but nothing on #4 and #3. Argh... I just need to be able to get her in the water and motor to my slip about a mile down the bayou. Looks like a head removal lies in my future....

Thanks again for all the support, gentlemen.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Since your boat has been on the hard for 11 months there it a chance that valves in two adjacent cylinders are stuck. Consider this before you yank the head. I have not had any experience in this area but others in the forum are very knowledgeable. Starting a new thread will get their attention the quickest.

In the meanwhile you need to acquire a volt - ohm meter so we can stop guessing and pinpoint your ignition problem(s). A $20 - $30 analog meter is sufficient.

The best of luck to you.

TRUE GRIT

[sailhog]

I finally got spark to the plugs. However, I don't have any compression on cylinders 3 and 4. A mechanic friend believes the intake valve is stuck open. Is there any way to close it without yanking the head -- say with a bent screwdriver through the sparkplug hole? She still won't start.... argh....

John, I think you're right on about the valves....

Thanks everyone. Appreciate all the help.
Dwight

[ArtJ]

People have squirted mystery oil into the cylinder and used a allen wrench
to free stuck valves may work for you.

Regards

Art

[sastanley]

sailhog...there are lots of threads on stuck valves...do a couple of searches, but Art's given you the basics..sometimes an allen wrench works. I got an oil can and squirt MMO into the cylinders and turn the engine over for a quick second (without starting) to move the MMO around..let it sit a few days and see how your compression numbers look..sometimes it takes repeated tapping & oiling to get them to free up..sometimes you'll have to pull the head to get the valve free. :(

[ndutton]

Dwight,

What did the no-spark issue turn out to be?

[sailhog]

Neil,
The spark problem turned out to be incorrectly gapped points. Got that figured out! I still haven't been able to get her started, but have zero compression in cylinders #3 and #4.

I believe I have some stuck valves. As I understand it, the cylinder needs to be in the compression stroke so that I'm not pushing down on the valve against the cam lobe. Anyone know how ascertain whether or not a particular cylinder is the compression stroke? Preumably, you just rotate the prop while in gear?

Thanks again to everyone for all their help. That Cookson fella called it with the valves being stuck in two adjacent cylinders.

[ndutton]

There's a hand crank available for rotating the engine. Remove the distributor cap to watch the rotor as you crank. The rotor will point to the plug wire (if the cap were in place) of the cylinder at TDC.

[sailhog]

Neil,
Thanks for your help. Much appreciated. My boat doesn't allow for access to the flywheel, so I'm assuming the next best approach is to rotate the prop to the designated cylinder while the engine is in gear? Does that sound right?

[ndutton]

I've never tried to rotate the engine via the prop so I'm not the one to ask. How 'bout an old skool remote starter button? You could 'bump' the engine that way. It would be a Helluva lot easier to keep an eye on the rotor.

[ArtJ]

Neil,
Thanks for your help. Much appreciated. My boat doesn't allow for access to the flywheel, so I'm assuming the next best approach is to rotate the prop to the designated cylinder while the engine is in gear? Does that sound right?

If you have a PTO on the flywheel for freshwater cooling you can rotate
the engine by grasping the belt.

Regards

Art

[jpian0923]

Why did this thread die? Any updates? I gotta hear the ending! :D

[sailhog]

Jpian and everyone else:
Still can't get the ol' girl started. This is turning out to be unbelievably frustrating....

Here's where I am:
I had zero compression in cylinders #3 and #4, but now have compression in both. I cleaned the entire fuel column -- the tank, the priming bulb, the racor, the lines, the new polishing filter. I've cleaned the carb, and replaced the float valve, I had fuel dripping from the flame arrestor. Incredibly, the new float valve still sticks! After installing it, I could still see that the pencil shaped thing still doesn't want to descend with the floats (the shipping on the float valve kit was nearlly as much as the kit itself).... Once again, it feels as though I'm not getting spark. A couple of weeks ago a friend confirmed that I had spark at the plugs (after replacing all of the engine-side ignition parts -- one-by-one, so that the shipping costs would be as painful as possible), but now I can't here that blessed sound you get when you here her wanting to start. She's just turning over. I'm wondering if I fried my coil by leaving the ignition key on a time or two for too long during all of these --------- tests. Argh. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's help. Any suggestions are much welcome.

Best to all....
Dwight

[13jeff13]

If you have access to a good ohm meter, you can Ohm the coil and compare that to a known good coil's Ohm reading. It may be listed here on a thread somewhere. If not I'll Ohm Mine and report. :)

Disconnect all wires leading to the coil, to get a true reading. BUT,, if you are getting spark,, I kind of doubt the coil is bad. Usually they are either good or bad,, not in between. When they are bad, they will either read OPEN,, as in No reading at all on the Ohm Meter. Or Shorted,, very High Ohm Reading.

[13jeff13]

Jpian and everyone else:
Still can't get the ol' girl started. This is turning out to be unbelievably frustrating....

Here's where I am:
I had zero compression in cylinders #3 and #4, but now have compression in both. I cleaned the entire fuel column -- the tank, the priming bulb, the racor, the lines, the new polishing filter. I've cleaned the carb, and replaced the float valve, I had fuel dripping from the flame arrestor. Incredibly, the new float valve still sticks! After installing it, I could still see that the pencil shaped thing still doesn't want to descend with the floats (the shipping on the float valve kit was nearlly as much as the kit itself).... Once again, it feels as though I'm not getting spark. A couple of weeks ago a friend confirmed that I had spark at the plugs (after replacing all of the engine-side ignition parts -- one-by-one, so that the shipping costs would be as painful as possible), but now I can't here that blessed sound you get when you here her wanting to start. She's just turning over. I'm wondering if I fried my coil by leaving the ignition key on a time or two for too long during all of these --------- tests. Argh. Anyway, I appreciate everyone's help. Any suggestions are much welcome.

Best to all....
Dwight

I am seeing two different statements which are inconsistent with what should be happening. First if you replaced the needle,, Pencil Shaped thing, hopefully you replaced the seat, as it could be holding the new needle in place if it is not compatible, or worn,, Fuel pressure should be enough to release the needle along with gravity. THAT SAID,, if the needle was sticking on the seat, ,not falling, it would not be flooding the carb,, it would be starving the carb of fuel. :confused:

[sailhog]

Jeff,
Thanks for your post. I hear what you're saying.... I replaced both the pencil-shaped thing and the seat (along with both carb gaskets). When I spoke with the folks at Moyer, I was told that fuel leaking at the flame arrestor was most likely due to a stuck float valve. If my float valve isn't stuck, then what might be causing the gushing of fuel at the flame arrestor?

Again, thanks for your attention....
Best,
Dwight

[13jeff13]

"Incredibly, the new float valve still sticks! After installing it, I could still see that the pencil shaped thing still doesn't want to descend with the floats"

I think what you are seeing when the carb is apart, is that the needle doesn't fall, and you believe it isn't when it is all put together, and installed on the engine. I believe that the needle is falling properly under pressure from the fuel pump, and flooding your carb from maybe improper adjusted float angle,, same as another thread here,, Domenic,,I will never trust my A4 again thread . UNLESS of course they meant that your needle is stuck in the down position, not seated, or allowing the float to push it up into the seat,,, OR,, as others have mentioned in other posts,, Perhaps the float itself is not floating,, filling up with fuel:( In which case it should slosh around inside the floats themselves if they are full of fuel. :) Just trying to get a good grasp on the situation.:)

Lastly, when my carb is in my hand with the bowl removed, I can blow into the fuel input hole and the needle falls,, Rust and all:D

[13jeff13]

I believe I read that you have an electric fuel pump,,, I wonder how much pressure it builds up, and perhaps is pushing the needle out of its seat resisting the upward float pressure? That would be a bummer. And your float angle would need reset to make counter pressure,, UGH,, :eek:

[JOHN COOKSON]

Somehow the valve and seat are not square. The seat may be cross threaded and at a funny angle so the valve is wedged in it and not closing all the way.
This would explain why the valve does not seal and does not drop down with gravity.
Same line of reasoning as Jeff. (Last few posts)

Do you have spark yet? Did you get a volt-ohm meter?

TRUE GRIT

[sailhog]

Jeff, John:
I have spark... however, the float valve seat is not cross-threaded. I'm wondering if the float is perhaps bent slightly so that it doesn't allow the pencil-shaped thing to ascend to the top of the seat? Does that make sense?

And now for the grand finale... I was squirting some PB blaster through the spark plug hole to the #3 cylinder and the red plastic tube FELL OFF and slipped into the cylinder -- and it was in the lower swing of its movement.... I sheet thee not. So... I pulled the head. Took two hours... ordered the gaskets, which will be here tomorrow....

Big question: What is the safest/best way to un-stick sticky valves with the head off? I don't want to cause any problems at this point. Just want to improve the movement of the #3 and #4 valves.... that's all. Head will be on tomorrow and hopefully will figure out the carb problem.... Again, thanks to all. In this case, I apprecaite all prompt replies....
Best to all,
Dwight

[sastanley]

Dwight, Did you order a valve cover gasket too? Now that you've pulled the head...you might as well yank the valve cover and then you can easily see the status of all the valves. turning the motor by hand is the best way to check all this. There was an extensive discussion started by rigspelt a couple years back, which I printed out and used to adjust all of my valves...it will provide you with the clearance and order of checking, etc.etc.etc..but you need the valve cover off to see if one of the lifters is not attached to a sticky valve before you whack on it. It is best (easiest?) to see the valve cover with the carb & fuel pump removed.