Gas vs Diesel

[Don Boehl]

I just purchased a 1925 catboat with a Atomic 4 engine. The engine needs to be replaced. I do not know weather to replace the Atomic 4 or put in a small diesel. What are the pros and cons.

Some sailors I have spoken to say diesel is better. I personally do not like the smell of diesel and the noise, but am concerned about the safety of the gasoline fumes.

Some of the sailors mentioned that the Atomic 4 was not a good engine.

Fuel economy is also a concern.

Any advice about this topic will be appreciated.

Regards,

Don Boehl

[Leo Crowley]

Whoever told you the A4 is not a good engine needs to have their head read. It is rock solid, cheap to operate and parts and service are widely available. It is quieter than a diesel and packs a lot of power for its size.

[ericson_35]

Having worked on everything from 5,000 HP MTU diesels down to the 30 hp A-4's I can say the A-4 is a pleasure to work on as long as you have decent access. I think most complaints form anti-A-4 folks are the ones that don't take care of them or use the "It's now broke so I guess it's time to fix it" approach. Neglect is the enemy of any mechanical device and I see it so often.

The cost of a diesel refit in a 1925 boat is going to run about $8,000 + when all is said and done (new engine mounts, new prop, maybe a shaft, shift/throttle controls, gauge panel, wiring, fuel lines, return line fitting to tank, etc.). So, ask yourself, is it worth it? And will I get my money back? Frankly, probably not.

If I had my choice and my boat (1972 Ericson 35) came with a diesel, I'd be fine with that, but it has an A-4 and I have no intention of switching. Yeah, it needs a tune up now and then, but the costs are minimal compared to rebuilding an injection pump or injectors or other diesel issues that pop up now and then (priming, fuel must be immaculately clean, etc.).

In 6 years now with the A-4 I have had minimal problems, but I look after it.

If I was going around the world, or very long distance, I'd contemplate another boat with a diesel but never refit my current boat as I'd never get my money back. But if you are like me and put on 125-150 hours (max) a year in just docking and getting in/out of the marina, that's not much time on an engine. Yes Diesels are generally built heavier duty, but that comes with a price, Mo Money.

As for safety, I have no concerns about the gas in my boat as long as the fuel tank is robust, fuel lines are inspected regularily, the bilge is checked for fuel as well. Plus run blower before starting! Personally, I open the engine hatch when starting to verify no leaks, odd noises, or other issues. Good engineering and safety practice.

Diesels may get a little better fuel economy, (my A-4 is at about 3/4 gallon an hour at full throttle on my boat - 13,000 lbs.) but the one triple set of 3,300 HP diesels I was overseeing burned 130 gallons an HOUR EACH! and with three of them at full bore it was 400 gallons an hour at 30 knots. I kid you not, the fuel lines were one inch in diameter to each engine! That's burning fuel!

Hope that answers some concerns, if not pop me off some more questions.

[David Masury]

I have had my share of troubles with my Atomic 4 over the last nine years, but I have learned why and how to correct the varying issues. My engine is now safe, reliable, quiet, and does not require replacing. I looked at a diesel replacement and did not see any advantage to a well running A4. You might want to consider having yours looked and possibly rebuilt as a starting point. Don Moyer has great books and parts available and is a wealth of generous information to help you along. Then you will have an engine that you can maintain and service anywhere you boat will take you.

[Don Boehl]

Thanks to all responses.
The tact I will take is to pull the Atomic 4, when the boat is delivered, and have Don Moyer inspect the engine for repair. The fact is, I would like to keep the boat in as original condition as possiable including the engine.

Best regards,

Don Boehl

[dduelin]

When some know-it-all starts talking about how gasoline engines are bombs just waiting to go off you might ask him if he has propane onboard and how does he stow his dinghy engine fuel. Got a diesel on that RIB, bub?

Seriously, several years ago I researched just how many fires or explosions each year are blamed on gas engines. The USCG website has 5 years of very detailed statistics. Out of some 12 million powered vessels, 1 or 2 boat operators each year somehow contrive to blow their boats up with propulsion fuel. Sadly, sometimes he/she takes a few people with them so the fatal numbers might be up to 7-8 people a year. Of course some years there are none. On the bright side, reports are it is usually a powerboat that goes up and not an auxiliary sailboat. Years and years sometimes go by without reported incidents of propulsion fuel fires/explosions on sailing auxiliaries - and the USCG does not break out whether gas, diesel, or dylithium crystals powered the unlucky barky. Still, less than 10 people each year die from propulsion fuel fires/explosions and that is spread across untold millions of hours of operation. More people than that die from lightning strikes or that ghastly flesh-eating bacteria. Even ant bites and bee stings claim more lives in the USA than dangerous gasoline engines do. The chances of blowing up your A4 powered sailboat are remote indeed. Use the blower and keep an eye on fuel system integrity and chances are good that you will not be one of the statistics. Heck, from the numbers it appears you can ignore the blower and never cast an eye on the fuel system and still not be blown to kingdom come! Just kidding, always follow safety procedures and keep things if working order.

Propane. Each year there are 10-20 deaths from COOKING fuel fires/explosions. Amazingly, nearly that many kick the bucket from improper anchoring and a similar group die from falling off gunnels and transoms. I kid you not, the USCG takes great detail in recording the ways boaters meet their maker. A few, but about twice as many that get blown up from gas engines, get killed when seating structures collapse. Then there are the 20 or so that slip and take a fatal fall but come to rest on the boat. Slipping and falling overboard is a separate group. 400 or so drown within a few feet of a perfectly good boat. Drop these numbers at a cocktail party and see the eyebrows go up.

Dave Doolin
1969 M30 Angel's Wing

[Vicente]

This was my first season with my 'new' boat, a Pearson 323 with an A 4 in it. Initially I had to tune it up and do some adjustmnents to it - all minor- and it rewarded me with trouble free use throughout the season. Mine can cruise strongly at 2500 rpm and idles below 900. Does that sound o.k.? I look forward to keeping this jewel of an engine as long as rust does not invade it. If you do not like the smell of diesel oil and the noise keep the A 4 it has more lives than any cat I have known.

Vicente

[Dennis L.]

Hi Don,

Noticed your thread and could not help but try a reply. Is a diesel any better than the A-4? I really believe that you can repower with the A-4 much cheaper than replacing with a diesel. I believe that the avg. cost to bring in a new diesel is around $10,000 if you out-source the work. You can have your A-4 rebuilt by Moyer for less than half that amount is my guess.

I've owned my current sailboat with an A-4 for over 2 yrs now and have found this little engine to be an absolute jewel. Quiet, smooth running, brain dead easy to work on (I'm speaking of myself) and as reliable as anyone could ask. I burn a steady 1gal per hour. That is higher than a diesel, but with a 20 gal. gas tank, I haven't been hurting for fuel. I suppose if I was to consider doing long term blue water sailing and voyaging, I would probably want the diesel.

I say stick with the A-4, upgrade it to fresh water cooling, install electronic ignition, consider electric fuel pump... mechanical is ok too... matter of personal choice, service regular and it will last another 30 yrs.

Good luck

Regards,

Dennis

[higgs]

25+ years using gas engines and I have yet to blow up.

[Steve Cartwright]

I'd like to join the discussion of gas vs. diesel. Reliable sailor friends say go diesel for sure...of course, they're not paying for the conversion. I have an Islander 32, built in 1964, with an Atomic Four that three different boat yard mechanics (all of them familiar with A-4s) said is beyond hope. So I guess I need to convert or buy a rebuilt Atomic...anyone know the cost?

A guy down the road is selling a Universal diesel, 16hp I think. Is that designed as a replacement for gas Universal Atomic 4? Gee, buy an old boat and you have these Big Questions. One guy said why not just sail your boat and forget the motor. I've done that this Summer. I'm not quite ready to take people out for an afternoon sail that could last two weeks.

[K Schubert]

Hello. Great forum! I have been an Atomic 4 owner now for for twelve years. My first experience with these engines came in 1987 on a 1965 Islander 32 (McGlassen/Wayfarer). The boat had great access and the original engine perfermed great for years. In 1994 I bought my current vessel, a 1968 C&C Corvette, which was also powered with an Atomic Four. This engine was a well maintained, raw-water cooled "late model". The Corvette has an aperture between the keel and rudder, and was equipped with a two blade prop which was noisy and underpowered. I researched all available props and became very familiar with Don Moyer and his excellent services. After changing to Electronic Ignition, I chose the Indigo three blade propeller. There is not a finer auxillary motor to be found than the Atomic Four. The smooth operation, economy and efficiency are unmatched by any diesel. This gasoline engine used to be a thing of the past but now seems to be a thing of the future. I wouldn't like the smell of diesel in my cabin. The Crankcase Ventelator now eliminates any fumes or blow-by down below. My boat is VERY efficient, and runs at optimum speed, temperature and RPM. Believe me.... these ol dudes know what they're doin!! I have two spares in my garage. I use this boat for coastal and Bahama crusing and it has never let me down. Attention to the fuel system is necessary for safety and efficiency. Large boat? Long, deepwater crossings? Yes, I would like a giant deisel. For those of us that play in the middle, the sweet Universal is quite enough. Thanks to Don, Brenda and Ken for the great advice, service, parts and ongoing innovation. KS

[jimjuliem]

Regarding fires resulting from the use of gasoline fuel. I just talked to a person who experienced a fire that sunk a boat because of diesel fuel leaking onto a hot manifold. Gasoline is more volatile and represents additional risk (over diesel) of fire if not properly contained. However, as you will notice in the car you probably drive, there are few or no fires caused by gasoline engines that are properly maintained. The key, of course, is proper inspection and maintenance. From all that I have been able to find out it is my opinion that the additional risk of having a gasoline fueled engine is acceptible if the generally accepted percautions are taken. There is always risk. (diesel powered boats often carry gasoline for the tender!) Managing the fire risk through prevention, detection, and extinguishment (in that order of priority) is the key, in my opinion. I have had an atomic 4 for 3.5 years and I am pleased with the power, smoothness, and reliability. It is relatively easy to work on and since you are here you know parts are available. I previously had a boat with a diesel engine and I have not missed it.

[dvdcnl]

I read that a diesel needs to be run hard to keep it running good. The worst thing for it is to idle out of a marina, raise the sails and shut it down. It never gets up to temperature. That's bad for a gas engine but even worse for a diesel.

A diesel is supposed to get better fuel economy than gas. You need to consider how much the difference between diesel and gas will save you over the life of the engine and if the extra expense of the diesel engine would be worth it. If and when you sell the boat, how much will the diesel engine add to the value?

[Motor John]

Nine years ago I bought a dilapidated Catalina 30 with an Atomic 4, although the engine still ran with a bad rod barring and burned valve it was wasn’t something I would want on board in that shape. I did a DIY overhaul with Don’s help.

Nine years later the engine still runs smooth quiet and strong. Best of all I know the engine now and am not afraid to make any repairs and maintenance is a snap.

I’ve been told the A-4 is a “bad” engine, but that just doesn’t seem to be the case.

When a diesel is running it’s great, but when it goes wrong it’s more difficult and expensive to repair.
:D

[Don Moyer]

Good for you John!

Don

[JimG]

I looked around briefly right after buying my boat and found I could get a new "compatible" diesel for about $8K, deklivered. If you don't install it yourself, it might be another $5K or so, depending on the boat.

Don can estimate a rebuild, but I'm sure it's less than 1/3 that total. There are a lot of serviceable A4s for sale (from other people that listen to the "convert to diesel" drum) on craigslist, ebay, etc for less than a rebuild.

[Jesse Delanoy]

We've had a 1977 Catalina 30, with original Atomic 4, for six years. With minor issues, the engine has generally been reliable. Last summer, in the middle of dealing with some water-in-the-oil problems, we discovered we had a bad bearing, and decided to repower.

The whole project, including a new, rebuilt engine from Moyer Marine, and installation at Zahniser's in Solomon's Maryland, ran about $10,000, much cheaper that a diesel retrofit would have cost, plus I still have the excess horsepower that an A-4 provides over a 16 hp diesel. Best of all, over the five previous years, I've learned how to do a lot of maintenance on the engine, learning that will be put to good use in keeping the new one running smooth.

Don and Ken were tremendous help to me throughout the entire process.

[hd78half]

Had to join in.

Have used the A4 for 16 years w/o any problems. Am rebuilding it now only because we've gutted the interior for an upgrade, and it's a great time to pull and re-install the motor.

Am doing all the engine work myself. Parts for the rebuild and some minor upgrades (electronic ignition) purchased from Moyer at $680.00. Minor parts from hardward store (paint, nuts & bolts, hose, etc) another $100.00. Machine shop charge to perform precise measurements on the crank, camshaft, rods, bearings, cylinders, and hone the cylinders was $95.00

Marina fees will be only the use of the travelift for hoisting engine out and dropping it back in are $75.00 each time, total $150.00. This was ultimately easier, for the money, then trying to use the boom.

Found the A4 extremely easy to disassemble and am expecting no problems during re-assembly. Very simple engine.

Gas is cheaper than diesel, and smells better. Diesel fuel injectors, filters, etc. are expensive and hard to work on.

My vote for Great Lakes, coastal and Caribbean cruising: the A4.

[Bacchanal]

I went through your exact deliberation a year ago. The cost difference was the big driver for me. For the marina to install a new Yanmar and hand me back my boat was going to cost about $16K (new exhaust, controls, gauges, etc.) and for me to repower with an A4, where I do most of the work myself, the total cost is going to be around $7K (new cables, hoses, alternator, fresh water cooling, etc.) For $9K I can spend a lot of weekends getting this done. I'm still struggling with the changes I want to make. It's the usual, "While I'm at it" thing where the to-do list gets longer rather than shorter, but it will be worth it. We had the A4 for 40 years and 2 rebuilds and it was always reliable.

[policecentral]

Watch out, you are on an Atomic-4 Lover's site. But, in my experience with almost 30 years with an A-4, you should definitely stay with it. I, with MM wonderful help recently repowered my Ranger 30 with an A-4 that is older than original, but in better shape. Everything fit and no surprises that are always encountered when repowering with diesel. Also, diesel smells, the fuel gets moldy, and the engine is heavier than your A-4.

All the talk about "gasoline danger" is nonsense.

Jim

[seagrave79]

Though I have had my doubts over the past year, I would now say, Keep the A4. In addition to all the reasons given above, here's my main one: I can work on it. After the work I have now done and the improvement in performance I have seen, I am reasonably confident that I can do most repairs on my little engine. And as long as I could get to a phone, I think I could manage just about everything up to and including a major fix. I couldn't say that with a diesel. For a cruiser, that's important.

Just make sure you have your spares.

Walt
1969 Pearson Coaster #114
Passages

[Jlmatt]

Hello everyone. my goal ultimately is to go blue water ocean crossing at some point. And when I sit here, trying to imagine the worst and how I would handle it, I have to say that if I were to go through the kind of storm where the boat is like in a washing machine, I would worry about gasoline leaking. Should I go with diesel then? What a pain, and expensive. I think I'm leaning toward keeping the A4 because I think I'm able to work on it with my limited mechanical knowledge. If I inspect everything, all the hoses and tubings, connectors and clamps regularly and if I try to stay very aware that gasoline is indeed extremely flamable,I think I can keep it safe. I would rather spend the money on sails and rigging.

Jean-Luc, Pearson Triton.

[Concord]

My last boat had a Yanmar 1GM10 and my current boat has an Atomic 4.

My recomendation is to make sure you understand whatever engine you decide on. I had a problem with my 1GM10 and called the local Yanmar mechanic and he tried to start the engine with ether and did more damage than good. I was fortunate to find the best Diesel Mechanic around (aka The Diesel Doctor) to help me get the engine back in shape. It turned out that the original problem was fuel related and the ether ended up cracking the piston. The repair ended up being around $600 but the engine was small (1 piston) and the DD cut me a break because I pulled the engine and brought it to him (not an easy task while at anchor). Through the process I ended up learning more about diesel engines than I ever wanted to know.

So far I am very happy with the atomic 4, diagnosis and repair seems to be easier than on the diesel. There is also more support around for trouble shooting the A4 than the diesel. Don (The Atomic Doctor) is a great resource and can provide the support to keep you going.

The marine environment is tough on fuel especially in a sailboat where the fuel lasts a long time. Gas or Diesel you need to make sure you take care of your fuel. If you don't burn a full tank over a season then it would be wise to drain the fuel and start fresh.

Good luck

[msauntry]

I'll throw in my two cents even though its an old post, it still gets read alot.
Gas engines are easier for the average person to learn to work on, though diesel engines aren't that much harder. If you're travelling long distances, whatever is in your boat, you better know it well because sooner or later you're gonna be fixing it yourself. The advantage of these Atomic 4's is the support available, as odd as it sounds for such an old, out of production engine. There have been so many things learned over the years, and so many kits available to improve weak points, that there is nothing you have to do that hasn't been done before and is probably written up somewhere on this very site.

I read about people thinking of repowering because their 10 year old diesel is not running well, and I wonder that my roughly 40 year old engine is still running well. It seems for reliability sake, get a cast-iron engine, be it either gas or diesel. Aluminum ones don't tolerate abuse like the iron ones do.

[CowboyPhD]

Hey hd78half-

Do you have that list of parts you bought to rebuild? I'm tearing down an old A4 in my shop and preparing to rebuild. I could use some advice. What machining services did you have done? What were you able to do yourself? What would you have done differently? Etc.?

Thanks.

[Marian Claire]

I just finished my rebuild so thought I would jump in with some info. I bought new pistons .010 over, rings, valves, valve springs, keepers, main bearings .010, rod bearings .010, cam bearings, wrist pin bushings, gasket set, and manual. The machine shop cleaned, surfaced, bored and honed the block, ground the crank, surfaced the head, reface seats and lifters and recondition rods. Also had them balance the crank assembly. Due to my intended use I chose to error on the safe side.
All the disassembly and reassembly I did myself. I had a mechanic friend who showed me some tricks, ring installation, proper torque technique, etc. Also used the forum and Don on the tech line.
Enjoyed the whole experience. Some advice.

1 Learn the language. I made mistakes in ordering and with the machine shop due to my lack of vocabulary.

2 Clean Clean Clean Even after cooking the head, block and manifold I pressure washed, use a washer with HOT water, cooking only does so much.

3 The manual is great. Go slow and reread.

I pulled the gas tank while the engine was out and cleaned it but that’s another story.
Dan

[LarryBud]

We just bought a 1974 Ericson 35-2 after going through the standard years of thinking and dreaming, months of looking at boats, and months of asking experienced sailors for advice on what to avoid in buying a used boat. I have to admit I was looking for a diesel, and that was based on all the free advice from all sources, but we still ended up with an Atomic 4 because I liked the boat so much.

After reading this forum I have to wonder where all the advisors are getting their intelligence. I've spent many hours on a friend's Seidleman 37 and when that diesel starts up it is very noisy, and smelly. What a difference with my Atomic 4; and mine is in the middle of the cabin. In my younger days I never took my car to a mechanic for repairs - did them myself. Now days the car is way to complicated, but that Atomic 4 sure looks a lot like that flat head in a 1949 Ford.

Through dumb luck, I think I ended up with the best engine for my needs and my boat. I wish I had seen this thread before I when shopping, would have saved me some anxiety. Next time I have a friend shopping for a sailboat I'll send them to this forum.

[tony s.]

Sorry Folks,

This is a little off topic.

I am sure that there is a reason why I haven't heard anything about converting A-4s from gasoline to propane burning but can someone fill me in?

Thanks,

Tony s.

[jeffgerritsen]

Hey guys,
thanks for all the replies. I have a 1976 Pearson 35 with an A4. At 750 hrs on the rebuild, I'm thinking this is a mid time engine, so I'm going through the gas vs diesel repower mental exercise. From what I'm reading on this thread, its thumbs up on staying with the A4 and performing whatever major maintenance is needed, if any. It will sure save me a lot of money staying with the A4.

BTW, for serious blue water crusing, whats the problem with gas, other than storing a suficient quantity between ports of call? From what I've read I can't find any. Anyone want to chime in with their two cents worth?

Regarding the safety of gas vs diesel, well I'm more concerned about propane fuel used in cooking than gasoline used in vessel propulsion. Saftey records seem to bear this conclusion out.

Jeff

[jeffgerritsen]

Sorry Folks,

This is a little off topic.

I am sure that there is a reason why I haven't heard anything about converting A-4s from gasoline to propane burning but can someone fill me in?

Thanks,

Tony s.

Tony, I'll answer your question with an honest question I have. Why would you want to convert from gasoline to propane in light of the following statements?

Propane has less BTU's per unit of measure (91,500 vs 115,000 per gallon).

Propane has more safety concerns, requiring more techno gizmo's for monitoring, thus adding more points of possible failure than gasoline.

Finally, Propane can cheat on the ultimate safety test of all, the sniff test, using our standard issue olfactory organ -- the nose!

Jeff.

[Mark S]

Jeff,

I have a 1976 Pearson 35 with an A4. At 750 hrs on the rebuild, I'm thinking this is a mid time engine, so I'm going through the gas vs diesel repower mental exercise. From what I'm reading on this thread, its thumbs up on staying with the A4 and performing whatever major maintenance is needed, if any. It will sure save me a lot of money staying with the A4.

We have a 1969 Pearson 35 with an A4 said to be from 1980 rebuilt in the 1990's with probably more hours on it than yours, although the POs' documentation lacks specifics. The problems you and I face with our boats being powered by A4's are two, value and power.

As to value, the market prefers diesel and when we bought last year we were able to take advantage of that by paying a low purchase price. I figure the cost to go to diesel, were I so inclined, would probably be roughly the same as whatever increase in value we might experience on resale. We aren't selling any time soon, so I'm content to keep the A4 and spend my boat bucks elsewhere.

As to power, our P35s are probably the most boat the A4 can be expected to push. I'm trying to find ways to increase RPM to get into the A4's real power band which is definitely above the 1500 to 1700 RPM I'm able to reach now. We did quite well downeast this year with the OEM two blade, but I'd feel more comfortable at some higher RPM. To start, I'm going to install an Indigo next spring. What prop do you use?

Mark S

[jeffgerritsen]

Mark,
as to the power / value discussion my experience mirror's yours and thanks for your input on that issue.

Regarding props, yea, 1500 - 1700 is pretty low in the power band. I have the CDI prop and RPM's top out at 1950 - just getting into the usable range of the HP / torque powerband. The opinion and observations I've seen, point to using the Indigo prop as the preferred option.

I've noticed the need to repack the rudder post and stuffing box. When the boat is hauled out for those, I'm planning on installing the Indigo prop. Reports indicate max rpm in the 2200 - 2400 range - just where you'll need to be to get the most out of the A4.

We might find at 2200 - 2400 rpm the A4 is well suited for the P-35 application. A bounus we didn't originally expect - I hope!

Jeff

Jeff,

We have a 1969 Pearson 35 with an A4 said to be from 1980 rebuilt in the 1990's with probably more hours on it than yours, although the POs' documentation lacks specifics. The problems you and I face with our boats being powered by A4's are two, value and power.

As to value, the market prefers diesel and when we bought last year we were able to take advantage of that by paying a low purchase price. I figure the cost to go to diesel, were I so inclined, would probably be roughly the same as whatever increase in value we might experience on resale. We aren't selling any time soon, so I'm content to keep the A4 and spend my boat bucks elsewhere.

As to power, our P35s are probably the most boat the A4 can be expected to push. I'm trying to find ways to increase RPM to get into the A4's real power band which is definitely above the 1500 to 1700 RPM I'm able to reach now. We did quite well downeast this year with the OEM two blade, but I'd feel more comfortable at some higher RPM. To start, I'm going to install an Indigo next spring. What prop do you use?

Mark S

[67c&ccorv]

I drive diesals for a living...4,400HP diesal locomotives that is, but when it comes to my 1967 C&C Corvette sailboat with the original early model A-4 I will stick with gasoline.:D

[hgriff25]

I own a 1969 Cal 2-30 with an Atomic 4 which has been in the vessel for 40 years now with very few problems. I had to switch to premium gas but the extra cost is not a problem. This engine was overhauled once in 1979 by the previous owner. It runs OK but rust around the right engine mounts and oil leaking from the thrust bearing are concerns. A local repairman wants to replace it with a diesel but I am not convinced it is the right choice after reading other user inputs. I will check with Don Moyer. Since I am in Hawaii it is not as easy to get things done. Extra shipping costs installation etc.

[67c&ccorv]

I own a 1969 Cal 2-30 with an Atomic 4 which has been in the vessel for 40 years now with very few problems. I had to switch to premium gas but the extra cost is not a problem...

Ok, I'll bite...why is it neccessary for you to use premium fuel in a gasoline powered motor that has a 6.35 to 1 compression ratio?:confused:

[jpoe]

You can hear them coming and smell them going...Diesels have higher torque at low RPM than gasoline engines of equal size, they seem to get better fuel economy while they are running. They are completely different animal from gasoline engines because they require very high compression to burn fuel. (A diesel engine operates more like a compressor in that heat of compression ignites the fuel.) That means high potential for breakdown. The worst part is that "we" have been mis-directed to think to the engine as the imortant part of a diesel engine when actually the fuel pump is the major head ache (and expense).

Have you noticed how many small shops exist only to repair diesel fuel pumps? That is because this expensive little gem has to operate at an even higher pressure than the already extreme pressure in the cylinder to inject fuel in there to burn!

Want to rebuild your own diesel fuel pump? Good Luck! Pay $20 for a gasoline pump and compare. Rebuild your carbeurator with a $20 kit. Change spark plugs for 75 cents. Gasoline Fumes? Rebuid the above parts and use common sense in maintenance and simply use your exhuast fan as on every boat.

So, save a few bucks on fuel consumption? Diesel costs more per gallon. Then after a few short years of messing with critters in the fuel and spend $1000 bucks to replace / Rebuild fuel pump, engine.... No way. Give me a 30 year old A 4 in any case. If I were to purchase a new 50 footer I would want an A4 change out and sell the diesle to someone who is too lazy to think it out.

[Maurice]

Well, I like my diesels. My truck and car are both diesel. My boat has an atomic 4 in it and I have my spare in my garage. No matter what you have it has to be looked after. I have towed home 3 diesel powered boats this year due to fuel problems and 1 that had water back up and damage the valves (yanmar) Catalina 30. Had a fuel problem myself but the engine didn't quit...I didn't have all my horsies, but a few stayed up and running and we made it to our destination.

The biggest problem that I see with diesels is that most underpower their boat. I can walk away from most of them as soon a chop or wind comes up. Not because the diesels are bad....they put 20 hp in a boat that need 40 hp. This happens fequently.

I know enough about engines to be comfrotable with my Atomic 4 and if I had to take her out in a bit of weather tonight to get one of the boys I know those horsies will get up and at it. That's TRUST!

[ArtJ]

It may well be true that they under power Diesel boats, but my understanding
is that a lesser horsepower diesel is supposed to be the equivalent of
a larger horsepower gasoline engine. Something to do with the stroke etc. Perhaps some of engine experts here can add more to this.


Regards

Art

[Laker]

"Some of the sailors mentioned that the Atomic 4 was not a good engine."

Good thing that we are connected only by the internet rather than standing together in a bar...!

[hanleyclifford]

Destiny came with a tired early A4 and I got a lot of free advice about "drop-in" diesel conversions. But driving the Crosby launches around and listening to the deck hatches coupled with advice from other wooden boat owners put me off the idea. I don't know if it's really true but they claimed a diesel can shake fasteners loose and might have to have soft engine mounts which can complicate drive line alignment. Besides, I was already a gasoline engine mechanic. What really nailed it for me was helping the distraught captains of million dollar yachts standing off Edgartown harbor ferry jug after jug of useless diesel ashore so they could pay someone to dispose of it.:eek:

[ArtJ]

Hanley
Just curious, where is your home port?

Art

[hanleyclifford]

Edgartown, Martha's Vineyard

[ArtJ]

Hanley

I used to keep my boat in Mattapoisett. I loved going to MV and anchoring
in Katama Bay, aside from the occasional idiot, power and sail included,
who anchored poorly in the entrance and dragged anchor, it was a
great place. Then the "environmentalists " got the town to permanently
close anchoring in there due to potential pollution, even though a pump
out boat patrolled and was used by nearly everyone. Since then,
you have to either pay several months ahead whether you actually use a downtown
mooring or not.( If you don't show, they leave it vacant.)

That leaves only mooring and anchoring outside the harbor with the
heavy chop from Vineyard sound and steamships heading for "amity".

Don't know if this policy has changed a little, I would hope so. It was
my favorite destination. I am sure people wouldn't have minded paying
a landing fee to support the services.

Regards

Art

[Maurice]

Most people like what they have, because that is what they know. Diesels are larger in comparison to their gas counter part. Some boats that require a 30hp don't have the room to install it without ripping the boat apart. They settle for the smaller engine...and my atomic 4 will keep up with a 15-20hp diesel no problem...when it gets rough I punch through...they don't. I know this because my friends (2) have diesels in C&C 30's also. They all scoffed at the A4 initially. After a few cruises, and a couple of tows, these guy are are pretty quiet about how good their diesels are.

[rigspelt]

Always thought I had to have diesel in a sailboat, and always associated diesel odour in boats with "the sea", but our latest boat came with an A4 three years ago, and I'm a convert now, at least for our day trip/coastal cruising lifestyle. Clean, reliable, simple, cheap, safe (if kept shipshape).

[Maurice]

Rigspelt;

Mine has run well also. 1925 nautical miles on Odyssey this season, over 1800 of those solo. I love to leave Halifax Hbr in the morning and head out on the Atlantic. Occassionally wind comes out of the NW and I have to fire up the engine and motor back in through Eastern Passage to bring her home. 35 knts steady on the nose through the passage a couple of weeks ago. 3 blade non folding prop and the atomic 4 did fine. There are boats that don't have enough power to get safely out of their slips and away from the marina in a modest blow. Odyssey is not one of them.

[sastanley]

Maurice, 1925 miles! Wow, I am envious of the time you make available to spend on your vessel. :cool:

The only cruise we've managed out into the Chesapeake this year was to Oxford (boat on the hard too much due to other issues this year :rolleyes: ) ...we left Solomons at 1730 local time on a Friday evening and it was snotty and blowing out of the East about 15-20. We had no problem punching thru the waves out of the Patuxent. We saw only one other sailboat and one tug & one ship during our evening trip. Talk about needing to rely on your equipment with no one around to help you! :D

We made it fine...As dusk approached and we are screaming across the Bay, I started checking out the lights I'd need later on (knew running lights were good.) The only problem was my brand new steaming light didn't work..a trip up the stick revealed the (new!) bulb was no good...so I figured if the Coast Guard/Natural Resources Police/etc. wanted to pull me over as we quietly motored into Oxford harbor at 2330, they were welcome to! :rolleyes:

I haven't been out on the Bay in a long time with that few boats around...but the conditions weren't exactly 'champagne sailing' either.

[big bob]

My Canadian Northern 35 was built in 1961 and came equiped with an A4 engine. In the 30 years I have owned the boat I have had no problems that wern't easily solved.

I only had one boat with a deisel engine, I hated the shake, rattle and stink of the thing and was glad to see the boat go over the horzion with its new owner.

Have been around A4s for over 40 years and still prefer them over deisel. Beofre messing around in boats I messed around with British cars, I find the
A4 simple to operate and maintain compared to those quirkie engines.

[Dave Neptune]

I bought my boat 26 years ago and got a great deal because the A-4 was shot and frozen to boot. I saved enough money on the boat to pay for a diesel but since I needed to move it down the coast I decided to see if I could get her broke loose and running enough to get her south. Well that was 26 years ago and the same A-4 is still running. It has not left me stranded once. My lil beastie ticks a bit and uses a bit of oil but it has been in the boat now for 41 years and the only real work was done when I bought it. I removed the head and repleced one exhaust valve and did a valve job. I have implemented most of the upgrades and as I say, "I have never had a problem that left me stuck at the Island or the dock":rolleyes:.

Dave Neptune:cool:

[CalebD]

...snip...
Have been around A4s for over 40 years and still prefer them over deisel. Beofre messing around in boats I messed around with British cars, I find the
A4 simple to operate and maintain compared to those quirkie engines.
big bob,
Welcome to the MM forums. If you messed around with British cars you might (or might not) appreciate this link: http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html

[big bob]

hard to put the smoke back in even in modern day electonics. Sounds like a good field for a bright young person to persure and make a fortune

[weremeer]

my first diesel engine was a three cylinder Universal 24 hp diesel. The first problem I had with it was the bracket to the altinator. The screw on the engine block losened and the altinator would not charge my engine. I was sailing to BLock Island and happened to stop at Old Lyme Marina. They told me there was a kit for the engine to put the altinator on the manifold. Of course I got the kit. The engine them developed a heating problem (sound familiar). they said it could only be the impeller, the thermostat or the engine water pump. I changed all, nothing worked. I sold the boat.
Then I had a Perkins diesel 4-108, between thirty and fifty horsepower. My first problem was with the fuel. I had to bleed it constantly. I got to be a pro at bleeding it. I put all kinds of chemicals in the fuel tank. I changed the filter to a better racor. Then I learned to bring a 5 gallon jug with me and hose to put diesel in it because the tank was dirty and when I hit waves it needed new fuel. I sold the boat.
Then I got a Volvo. It was a small Volvo diesel, I dont even rwemember the model. For the first year it ran fine. Then the next year I had to bleed it but it would not start. It seems that Volvos need to be bled at the fuel pump. I Found this out after months of trying. I went to an expensive Volvo mechanic. I sold the boat.
Then I bought a boat that had a bad engine. I had a mechanic who had a great Yanmar. It cost me a bundle but I was getting a great engine and they would install. The mechanic ran the engine in his shop. It was a 4 cylinder 60 Hp job. But he failed to put a valve above the water line and as I waved good bye to the mechanic, the motor filled with water from the exhaust. another motor shot.... Tell me about reliability of diesels.

[ericson_35]

I was trolling around the web and ran across my original 2004 "Diesel Vs Gas" post and still retain my original opinion. I own the same 1972 Ericson 35 with the same A-4 and I can happily report it's still running along just fine. I have done nothing to it in these intervening 7 years other than regular tune-ups (plugs, points, distributed cap, rotor etc.). The tune-ups, combined with regular oil/filter changes (depending on hours or elapsed time) and a Racor fuel filter change now and then results in the A-4 running like a Singer sewing machine. I've added an Indigo oil filter & crankcase breather kit as well as Moyer Marine's quick access raw water pump and that's it! There's no oil, fuel or raw water leaks nor anything else unusual to report upon in the past 7 years. I wonder how many diesel powered boat owners can report the same statistics? In these days of ever increasing complexity/computerized machinery, it's sheer pleasure to pop the engine hatch cover and see an engine that's utter simplicity in action and work on. What else can I say other than I'm not helping much to add to Moyer Marine's profits - my apologies Don!
Oh, I havn't blown up the boat either :)