Winterizing your Atomic 4

[Don Moyer]

Here is a rather free paraphrasing of Chapter 9 (Winterizing) from our service and overhaul manual:

Winterizing an Atomic 4 should not require more than an hour or so. A list of tools and materials is shown at the end of the procedures.

GENERAL:

Moisture-related damage and cracked castings caused by water freezing in water jackets are by far the biggest threats during winter lay-up. While the potential for cracked castings is rather easy to visualize, moisture related damage is somewhat less obvious.

Moisture can lead to corrosion on points which will almost surely cause hard starting in the spring. Moisture also can condense out of the atmosphere within partially filled fuel tanks and cause corrosion in carburetors, pumps, fuel lines, etc. And, even more troublesome, moisture can corrode valve stems enough to cause sticking valves by the time winter has run its course.

In areas where moisture is known to be excessive, it is sometimes necessary remove the plugs and turn the engine over on the starter while adding a bit more Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) to the combustion chambers to prevent sticky valves in the spring.

OIL SYSTEM:

Step 1: Drain oil. Draining oil at this time will set you up for an easy spring startup, since you shouldn't have to drain oil again until next fall (unless you exceed the recommended oil change interval of 50 hours).

NOTE: The next step assumes that there will always be approximately a quart of oil remaining above the intake of the oil pump after draining. If, as you are running the engine in step 2, oil pressure should drop from normal, add a second quart of Mystery oil.

Step 2: Add one quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. Run engine for about a minute to circulate the MMO-rich mixture throughout the oil swept section of the engine. I followed this practice for years to prevent internal corrosion (mainly on bearing surfaces, cylinder bores, and valve stems) and to facilitate re-commissioning in the spring when you need only to add enough new oil to bring the level to the full mark. It will save some time if you can look ahead and set up to accomplish Step 1 of the cooling system section while running the engine in this step.

NOTE: In the years since we originally wrote these procedures, some folks have expressed concern over the use of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) in the crankcase on a continuing basis. While we still see no downside to leaving up to a quart of MMO in the crankcase during the winterizing process, if an engine is used very little, following our procedure could result in a concentration of MMO in the crankcase (over several seasons) which could exceed "one quart per oil change" as listed in the instructions on the MMO container. In all cases, if oil pressure ever lowers below what has been normal for a particular engine, or if you suspect that you may have more than one quart of MMO in the crankcase, the oil (whatever the mixture) should be removed and the crankcase refilled with straight viscosity 30 weight detergent oil.

FUEL SYSTEM

Step 1: Check all filters, paying particular attention to sumps which can (and should) collect free water if any is present. If any water is discovered, I would definitely take the precaution of draining the bowl of the carburetor as well as the main jet passage. Any moisture in the carburetor will surely turn into a chalk-like muck by spring and cause all kinds of trouble throughout the next season.

NOTE: It would be good to manually operate the fuel pump to refill the carburetor before trying to restart the engine so as to limit starter cranking. All mechanical pumps have a "U" shaped lever hinged below them for this purpose. If that lever feels completely free when you try to pump with it, it simply means that the engine stopped with the cam shaft already deflecting the diaphragm. All you have to do is run the starter for a fraction of a turn and you should then be able to manually operate the pump. If you have an electric fuel pump connected directly to the positive terminal of the coil, you can fill the carburetor by simply leaving the ignition switch on for a few seconds (maybe 10 or so) before attempting to start. If you have an electric fuel pump with an oil safety switch, there's no easy way to refill the carburetor except to bypass the oil safety switch electrically while the ignition switch is on.

Step 2: Top off the fuel tank. Add Mystery Oil as usual and if you've had any moisture problems, you may consider one of the moisture inhibiting fuel additives on the market.

COOLING SYSTEM

Step 1: If you operate in salt water, draw in at least one 5 gallon bucket of fresh water through the "T" fitting (which you should have previously installed between the raw water intake and the intake to your engine driven water pump). When the hose cavitates as the bucket empties, race the engine slightly for a second or two to partially evacuate the block and, more importantly, the exhaust system. This few seconds of running, after the bucket empties, will leave less water behind within the engine to dilute the antifreeze when you draw it in later. If you've installed fresh water cooling, proceed to step three.

Step 2: Remove the two drain plugs in the side of the block behind the starter and alternator, and the single plug in the rear of the exhaust/intake manifold. If crud has settled out behind any of these plugs, it's best to take a wire and open up the area behind the plug holes so as to reestablish drainage. Reinstall drain plugs.

NOTE: In engines with raw water cooling, I always felt it necessary to remove the thermostat prior to step 3 and to temporarily squeeze off the bypass hose to the thermostat housing. This precaution insures that antifreeze has to flow through the block.

Step 3: Draw at least one gallon of recreational type antifreeze in through the "T" fitting previously used to draw in fresh water, or until you see antifreeze come out the exhaust.

Step 4: For early models with thermostat, I recommend drawing in one gallon of antifreeze with the thermostat installed so as to get antifreeze circulated throughout the block and manifold, and then a second gallon with the thermostat removed and re-circulating hose pinched off so as to force the antifreeze through the exhaust system.

UPPER CYLINDER AREAS

Step 1: When all other reasons for running the engine are past, remove all spark plugs. Put several "squirts" of Mystery Oil in each spark plug hole. Attempt to aim the Mystery Oil toward the center of the engine (away from the manifold side of the engine) as opposed to straight down from the spark plug holes, which would be toward the valves.

Step 2: Start the engine and run for just a few seconds. The goal is to shut the engine off in time to let the valve stems coated with Mystery Oil. If you have any RV antifreeze left, you may want to draw it in at this time as in step 3 above. Some antifreeze will be pumped out during the several seconds of running in the final step of the procedure, but this loss of antifreeze won't have any negative impact, since any air left behind cannot freeze.

Needed materials include:

Two quarts of Marvel Mystery Oil.

"Squirt" type of oil can (with Mystery Oil).

Five-gallon bucket.

Two gallons of recreational antifreeze.

Several gallons of fuel, as necessary, to top off tank.

Three 7/16" hex-headed brass 1/8" pipe plugs to replace whatever style of plugs were previously installed in water jackets.

Normal hand tools plus a needle-nose vise grip (in case any of the drain plugs stick).

Best regards,

Don Moyer

[slunga]

Is it possible to remove the rear block drain plug and the thermostat housing and pour antifreeze directly into the block until it comes out the plug and then retighten? Just a thought.

[brakauskas]

I have a 1977 Columbia 8.7 with a later A4. I have some questions on the steps for winterizing the colling system. I have a raw water system in which the past owners would just put the intake hose in a bucket and run antifreeze through the system. I notice that you have extra steps such as removing the drain plugs and and removing the thermostat. If these steps are bypassed what could happen to the engine? If the thermostat is not removed and drain plugs are also not removed will I have water in the block and risk a crack upon freezing?

[tenders]

If the thermostat isn't removed, yes, unless you're sure it's wide open when the antifreeze goes through, it won't circulate in the engine -- it will go straight through the bypass.

With a block properly full of antifreeze, I don't think the drain plugs are so critical. I've never removed mine.

I engineered a special winterizing cap for jugs of antifreeze by mounting a barbed plastic nipple onto one. I install that on the raw water intake, screw a full jug of antifreeze onto it, tip the jug upside down, poke a hole into the bottom of the antifreeze with a marlinspike, and run it through the engine. This gives the antifreeze a little bit of a "head" so the pump doesn't have to lift it out of a bucket.

[bputney]

Hi Don,

I intend to follow your winter lay up procedures tomorrow morning on my boat, which is out of the water and on its cradle. In case we have trouble getting it started, how would your instructions be altered to accommodate that? Will the hand crank at the front of the engine suffice to “pull” the antifreeze through the engine?

Thanks,

[Chip Hindes]

Probably, but why hand crank when you can crank with the starter?

Pull the fuel line first so you don't keep pumping fuel and you can make it really easy by pulling the plugs.

Limit your cranking to no more than about 30 seconds at a time to avoid overheating the starter & wiring or running the battery down too much. If you need to crank more, let everything cool down for five miniutes or so before cranking again.+

[Augustman]

As an alternative to the formal winterizing process, I was wondering if anyone out there in warmer climes has simply put a light bulb in the engine compartment and started the engine once or twice a week and let it run to temperature. We live 5 minutes from where we intend to keep this boat (if we end up buying it) and thought this might be an easier and less labour intensive alternative.

Is this too risky, or can this work?

[Chip Hindes]

Visiting your boat once or twice a week to start it is less labor intensive than winterizing it? Sure, if your winter lasts about two weeks. Seriously, for how long do you intend to do this and exactly how long do you think winterizing will take?

Starting a motor frequently just to bring it to temperature without putting it under some load is about the worst thing you could do for it.

I believe using a light bulb for heat is asking for trouble. It's a fire hazard and what happens when it burns out the day after you've visited your boat?

How "modest" is your winter? West Marine (and others) have fan driven pancake dehumidifiers that you can leave on indefinitely, but they're not designed to put out a lot of heat and might not be enough if a cold snap hits. Personally, I wouldn't count on freeze protection without a real heater, controlled by a thermostat.

[swokrams]

Chip,

Why is it bad to run an engine and not put a load on it? I do this.

I'm in Vriginia the winters aren't too cold (except maybe right now), so I keep the boat in the water. As soon as it hits 50 degress or higher, I take her out for a short spin. But sometimes I just run the engine.

I have sea water cooling. I use a T valve to suck up anti-freeze before I turn it off. I figure if I run the engine at least once a month and refill with anti-freeze all will be well. The rest of the boat is winterized and stays that way.

Any thoughts?

Steve

[MikeB.330]

The engine will never get up to operating temp. with out load on it. Even with a load it will take 45 min-1hr. to be fully warmed up. The cooling side will warm (temp gauge will come up) up but the oil and the lower half will not. By running the engine for only a few minutes at the dock moisture is allowed to enter the crank case. Because it never gets hot enough to cook out the moisture it will condense inside the block. Moisture on the inside on an engine is never a good thing.

I once had an air cooled Ducati Motorcyle with a sight glass to check the oil level. after a week or so of short hops around town the sight glass woudl start to get milky. The oil was fine but there was moisture on the inside of the glass. If on the other hand I ran the engine for 1 hr. or more it would clear right up.

Drawing in cool and damp winter cabin air into the crankcase must be worse than the air my Duc sucked in.

there are other reason as well such as carbon build up on the pistons /valves
ect. but the oil would my issue.

you would be better off installing a block heater with a timer on it but like you say VA isn't too bad.

Mike

[Chip Hindes]

Pretty much what Mike B said. The motor will come to temp more quickly and more evenly if you run at idle in neutral only until it runs smoothly with the choke off, then move out and run under low to moderate load until it comes to full temp. The only exception to this would be if, because of wind, current, traffic or whatever, you'll be forced to run full load, max RPM as soon as you drop the lines. In that case, warm it up fully first.

It never occured to me your boat was in the water. Makes a little more sense than before. You could put it in gear and run it against the lines to speed the warmup under load, but my personal feeling is if you're not going to run it for real, you'd be better off winterizing it and leaving it for the season.

Does the water your boat is floating in freeze? The motor will be at most only a few degrees colder than the water around the boat, so if not, antifreeze may not be required. In this case as well, one of those WM pancake dehumidifiers may be all you need, and they're pretty inexpensive. If the water around the boat does freeze, then you will need freeze protection; as I noted above I'd do the winterization and be done with it for the season, but if you insist you need to start it up frequently, I'd go for the block heater controlled by a thermostat rather than constantly blowing out and replacing antifreeze.

[Augustman]

It's not in the water yet, but here in SE Virginia, we keep 'em in the water year round pretty much. It is extremely rare for the water at the dock to freeze. Maybe in water too shallow for an Alberg 30, but generally that doesn't happen.

Some friends of ours that used to own an Alberg 30 with an Atomic 4, suggested an electric radiator heater in the cabin. You can tie it off so it doesn't tip over. And also, take the boat out for a motor spin when you can.

Since there are still opportunities to go boating here in the winter, it seems a hassle to winterize the boat over and over again with antifreeze every time you come back in.

[vabiker23518]

I keep my Columbia 8.3 at Queens Creek in Williamsburg. Just last week we had two sub freezing days (down to 18!). I'm glad I ran the anti-freeze (I have fresh water cooling so it was for the heat exchanger/exhaust) and keep a heavy duty light at the back of the engine. I think that cold snap could have been a disaster! It takes less than 2 minutes to run the antifreeze thru the heat exchanger and exhaust...cheap insurance I think!

[Mr. Close Reach]

First post - BIG thanks to Bill and the whole knowledge base here as I get to know my A4.

The boatyard winterized the engine a few months ago, and when I stopped by the boat last week I noticed that there was a greenish color in the bilge water. I pulled off the engine cover sure enough there was antifreeze at the spark plugs and puddled under the engine. No evidence that the tube from the overflow resevoir had come loose/leaked etc.

The boat engine does have an MMI-installed freshwater cooling system.

Any thoughts? I'm guessing that the yard didn't bypass the thermostat, but not sure if I have a big problem or a little problem on my hands.

Photo attached.


---
Michael

[rigspelt]

Could it just be spilled antifreeze that did not get cleaned up?

[jhwelch]

Even if it's just antifreeze that's been spilled it's a sign of sloppy work.
Next time I bet you do the job yourself--you have a freshwater cooling
system so no need to bypass the thermostat, it should only take a
few minutes.

-jonathan

[Mr. Close Reach]

Could it just be spilled antifreeze that did not get cleaned up?

I don't think so; she was winterized in November and I've been onboard every few weeks since then. This was the first time I saw any green in the bilge...

[s/v Dearbhail]

Well I'm no expert, but seeing anti freeze around the spark plug isn't a good sign. If it wasn't there before the temperature drop and it is now,,, same with the finding anti freeze in the bilge.

Have you pulled the plugs? Can you see anti freeze?
Have you checked the oil for evidence of water/anti freeze?

[rigspelt]

Very odd, and sure got me curious.

Is there a coolant line somewhere above the engine that could have leaked antifreeze and dropped it onto the engine?

I find it tough to see how a block or head could have ruptured and squeezed antifreeze up around the plugs -- that clearly is good strength antifreeze. There would have had to have been pure water somewhere behind the antifreeze that froze and pushed antifreeze ahead of the expanding ice, for example.

I wonder what the yard mechanics think.

[Mr. Close Reach]

Well I'm no expert, but seeing anti freeze around the spark plug isn't a good sign. If it wasn't there before the temperature drop and it is now,,, same with the finding anti freeze in the bilge.

Have you pulled the plugs? Can you see anti freeze?
Have you checked the oil for evidence of water/anti freeze?

Very odd, and sure got me curious.

Is there a coolant line somewhere above the engine that could have leaked antifreeze and dropped it onto the engine?

I find it tough to see how a block or head could have ruptured and squeezed antifreeze up around the plugs -- that clearly is good strength antifreeze. There would have had to have been pure water somewhere behind the antifreeze that froze and pushed antifreeze ahead of the expanding ice, for example.

I wonder what the yard mechanics think.

Thanks guys. I haven't talked to the yard yet, wanted to educate myself a bit more first. The tube from the overflow canister does run above the engine and that was my first guess, but I checked and it is secure and dry/clean. Haven't pulled the plugs or checked the oil yet, will do so today.

[Mr. Close Reach]

Pulled the plugs, no evidence of antifreeze or moisture inside, and nothing in the oil. I guess at this point a spill is the most likely explanation, although I still can't understand why I wouldn't have detected that a few months ago when the work was done.

[Jim Booth]

[QUOTE=tenders;6529]If the thermostat isn't removed, yes, unless you're sure it's wide open when the antifreeze goes through, it won't circulate in the engine -- it will go straight through the bypass.

With a block properly full of antifreeze, I don't think the drain plugs are so critical. I've never removed mine.

QUOTE]

I forgot to pull the thermostat this year. I just went to the boat and took it out. There was slushy antifreeze on both sides of it (in the hose and in the head). I found one drain plug toward the flywheel end and pulled it. A few drops of liquid came out. It didn't look pink but it's hard to tell with only a few drops.

I have the hose to the thermostat pinched off part way. I think that's a recommended temporary fix to keep the engine cool. Anyway, will that have forced antifreeze into the block even if the thermostat wasn't open fully? It was a cool day when I winterized.

Is there anything else I should do at this stage? I can get to electricity for a temporary space heater but it would take a long time to bring the block above freezing. It has been below 20 for a while with single digit nights.

Thanks,
Jim

[rpowers]

Is all this concern applicable to California?

[hudsojo]

Interested in any feedback on using the following block heater for the Atomic 4. I'm in southeastern Virginia and keep the boat in the water year round.

http://www.jcwhitney.com/Magnet-mount_Engine_Block_Heater?ID=12;0;1101001648;0;100 001;ProductName;4;0;0;0;2000836;0;0

Didn't see a block heater on the MM website.

Thanks.

[Blue Eyes]

Does one pump the antifreeze with the Starter Motor or
with the engine running?

[sastanley]

blue eyes, I would definitely do it with the engine running..if you only use the starter the lack of exhaust pressure would allow water to back in to the engine thru the exhaust...the very reason everyone cautions about closing your intake if you have starting problems..

[nreeves]

I followed the winter lay up directions from chapter 9 of the Moyer A4 book and the first several steps went. I changed the oil, drew antifreeze through the intake. Realized that I had the late model engine and removed the thermostat and did it again. I first forgot to pinch off the by-pass (which may have caused the problem), then realized the mistake and ran some more through with the bypass pinched off. Up until this point, everything worked as planned.

I then took out the spark plugs, sprayed some mystery oil in each hole and tried to start it again. I tried to start is again without the plugs in and it just gave a higher pitch whine, like a car started when it won't turn over. I tried again with the plugs in with a similar result. Each time, I only tried in for 10-15 sec's. I did notice that the intake did take on more fluid and I started one last time with the intake hose out of the antifreeze. The engine would not start. I pulled the plugs on last time and am worried that I may have had a back up of liquid in the system. The plugs did seem to have a faint antifreeze smell.

At this point, I am worried that I may have backed up water or antifreeze into the engine and would like to know how to trouble shoot this. I checked the oil and there seems to be no sign of water so far, but the engine has not run since the last few steps.

As you may have guessed, this is my first season with a boat and a A4. The thing worked like a dream all season and I want to make sure it stays that way. If you have any ideas of how to check the engine to ensure there is no water/antifreeze in the engine, I am all ears!

Thanks!

[keithems]

re. the above -- there may be alternatives [look in the cylinders if possible or suction them out carefully to see if there's h2o or antifreeze in them?] but at the end of the day -- if it were i, i'd start again and make sure the engine starts and runs normally if i had any doubts -- be sure to have a bucket of water there for cooling if it does run...then i'd just go thru the whole winterization procedure all over again -- all part of the learning process -- the stories i could tell you bout my first yr with the a4!

a few other comments / things i've learned / mods i've made on winterization:

1. last year i changed the oil a few weeks before winter shut down -- refilling with about 1/2 30 wt and the other 1/2 mmo -- then ran the engine gently on the final outings [all in the canal or river here] -- then shut dwon for the winter with that blend still in and changed it to the recommended 30 wt + 1 qt mmo after spring launch --

2. re. antifreeze -- i use the green stuff cuz it has lots of antirust compounds in it [which are not in the pink]...

the results this year were really great -- a4 ran better than ever -- and i really didn't do much else to it -- so i think....

seeing as it sits 5-6 months with no use to speak of -- sitting bathed [marinating?] in mmo and anti-rust [cooling system, etc.] can't "hoit" and may even make up for the summertime abuse...

and finally a few questions:

i know the usual flush liquid is muriatic acid or vinegar...but [B]what about using c.l.r. / lime-away or the various auto-store flush preparations made for auto cooling systems? would love to hear from don on this or anyone who has tried these....

[ArtJ]

I followed the winter lay up directions from chapter 9 of the Moyer A4 book and the first several steps went. I changed the oil, drew antifreeze through the intake. Realized that I had the late model engine and removed the thermostat and did it again. I first forgot to pinch off the by-pass (which may have caused the problem), then realized the mistake and ran some more through with the bypass pinched off. Up until this point, everything worked as planned.

I then took out the spark plugs, sprayed some mystery oil in each hole and tried to start it again. I tried to start is again without the plugs in and it just gave a higher pitch whine, like a car started when it won't turn over. I tried again with the plugs in with a similar result. Each time, I only tried in for 10-15 sec's. I did notice that the intake did take on more fluid and I started one last time with the intake hose out of the antifreeze. The engine would not start. I pulled the plugs on last time and am worried that I may have had a back up of liquid in the system. The plugs did seem to have a faint antifreeze smell.

At this point, I am worried that I may have backed up water or antifreeze into the engine and would like to know how to trouble shoot this. I checked the oil and there seems to be no sign of water so far, but the engine has not run since the last few steps.

As you may have guessed, this is my first season with a boat and a A4. The thing worked like a dream all season and I want to make sure it stays that way. If you have any ideas of how to check the engine to ensure there is no water/antifreeze in the engine, I am all ears!

Thanks!

I would have cleaned and dried the plugs or swap in another set of plugs.
Check that you still have spark.

Unless you forced water into the engine via a garden hose, a definite no no,
you shouldn't have caused water to enter the engine. Doing it via a
bucket and letting the pump pull its own water / antifreeze is the correct
approach.

[theredboat]

I took my boat out thinking I was going to have it back in before winter, but now I need to winterize it on the hard. What's the best method to do that? I've read through this thread and saw that some recommend cranking on the starter with the plugs out to get the antifreeze through. I don't have a thermostat so I'm not worried about having to to warm up the engine. But I dont want water getting back in to block through the exhaust. Please advise!

[edwardc]

I took my boat out thinking I was going to have it back in before winter, but now I need to winterize it on the hard. What's the best method to do that? I've read through this thread and saw that some recommend cranking on the starter with the plugs out to get the antifreeze through. I don't have a thermostat so I'm not worried about having to to warm up the engine. But I dont want water getting back in to block through the exhaust. Please advise!

Ignoring any fuel or oil prep with MMO, here's what I would do:

1: Remove the thermostat (I know, you don't have one), replace the housing, and clamp off the bypass line. This will insure that water gets flushed out of the block.

2: Disconnect the raw water intake hose from the through-hull and lead it into bucket of antifreeze.

3: Be SURE you're in neutral! The cutlass bearing needs water to cool and lube it! Secure the prop with a rag or line so it won't rotate from any residual drag from the transmission.

4: Run the engine just long enough to get pink antifreeze out of the exhaust, adding to the bucket as needed until this happens.

5: Kill the engine, remove the plugs, put a few squirts of MMO in each cylinder (as described elsewhere) and use the starter to turn it over a rev or two to distribute the MMO.

All in all, pretty similar to what you would do in the water. The key points
are to remove the thermostat and imobilize the prop.

[P30]

I have a 1976 P30 /salt water cooled/ electric fuel pump / oil safety switch / fuel tank already filled up and additives ok / in the water on the Magothy river (mid-Maryland-Chesapeake Bay).

This forum talked me through resolving my fuel related shutdown earlier this year and hopefully I can get some more advice on my first winterizing. I’ve read Don’s instructions and lots of threads and here is how I intend to seduce her:
1. Warm her up, drain oil using the handy oil changer recommended elsewhere on this forum.
2. Add a quart of MMO thru filler cap.
3. Attach a washing machine hose to the “T” fitting on water inlet line.
4. Start engine and run 5 gallons of fresh water out of a bucket and through engine, then a bit extra to clear the exhaust system.
5. Do my darndest to locate the freeze plugs, remove any that I can, clean out the holes with a wire bush and replace.
This part kinda scares me. To be honest, relationship with my new mistress has gotten off to a rocky start as I have not been able to spend much time with her. I did finally get down to see her the other night and hung upside down in the dark poking around (Note: mistress analogy ends here) but am not sure that I ever found her drain plugs. I know that they aren’t the original shiny brass 2 inchers so someone must have replaced them over the last 35 years. Every other mechanical fastener that I have needed to loosen on this boat has been seized tight so I don’t want to strip any threads/screw up anything if I don’t need to.

Question 1: If I eventually get antifreeze out the exhaust after running with thermostat both open and closed, how critical is removing the drain plugs?

6. Fill bucket with antifreeze (I got some blue stuff at WM that is RV/non toxic but supposedly has some rust prohibitors in it) and run engine till it exhausts.
7. Remove thermostat, pinch hose with griplocks over wood strips and run engine again. Drain Racor bow. Drain carb bowl.

Question2: Is this just removing the bolt on the bottom of carb bowl and draining any fuel?

8. Reattach & tighten bowl then jump fuel pump to refill the carb.

Question3: Do I just remove the wires from the oil safety switch and touch them against each other?

9. Remove spark plugs (pray I don’t strip anything)/squirt MMO toward engine center/replace/then crank for a few seconds.
10. Spark plugs back in, hoses reconnected. Mix dark rum with ginger beer and a dash of bitters. Eyes on mistress, celebrate seduction.

Note: I plan on tackling the electrical system at a later date after I find my old Neilson album and figure out what a point is.

Sorry for the lengthy post but hanks in advance for any help.

[Ajax]

I also have a P30, and I'm in the Rhode River, middle Bay. My previous owner says that as the final step, he'd start the engine and spray MMO fogging oil into the flame arrester/intake until the engine stalls.

Good? Bad? Opinions?

[P30]

Ajax, in years past, have you been removing your drain plugs? Based on whatever tilt they gave our engines, do you remember which ones that I should spend most of my time/energy on?

[Ajax]

This is my first winter, so no I don't. I'm in the same boat (literally and figuratively) as you are.

I'm racing the boat until November 20th, so that'll be the earliest that I winterize, unless the threat of a severe freeze comes before then. I plan on crawling into the engine space and investigating all of this before then.

[P30]

Ajax, Good luck with the racing! I love the way the P30 sails, our first boat was a brand new First 29 and yet I swear this new girl is faster on all points except maybe hard on the wind. Let me know how you do.

Off topic: she has a newly installed furler and yet came with a full suite of North hank on headsails (spinnaker, 145, 125 and a light genny that I left on the boat) If you are interested in any (or a spare pole), PM or email me.

[Loki9]

The block drain plugs are on the starboard side of the motor. Note that we are talking about 1/8" NPT drain plugs, which are not "freeze plugs". "Freeze plugs" are pressed into the block and only removed during an overhaul. The forward drain plug is behind the starter. It's possible to get to it without removing the starter, but it isn't easy. The aft plug should have a pipe nipple in it that extends out past the accessory drive. Hopefully, it won't break off when you try to remove the end cap. I've worked on two A4s now, one had a brass extension that opened easily, the other had an iron/steel extension that broke off right at the block when I tried to open it.

Access to the starboard side of the A4 is really poor in a P30, so I'd probably leave the plugs in and just run more antifreeze through it.

[positron]

I have had a P30 for 2 winters so far. The first winter I followed the (rather lengthy) winterization procedure as well as I could. It took me about 5 hours but that included help from my 9 year old son. I'm pretty sure I was the first person to take out the drain plugs in a while. I got all of them out and it wasn't too hard, but I couldn't verify unobstructed flow from the starboard side. Actually I was thrilled to get the aft one back in again. As I was explaining to my son how "fogging oil" gets its name, we happened to poke our heads above deck and saw that there was indeed a very thick petroleum fog rolling across the creek. Motor ran fine next spring.

The next year I noticed a check-box on the marina's haul-out form for "engine winterization". I was in a hurry and it was cold, so I thought what the heck. Now, the marina guy is pretty conscientious, but the service costs $100 and at $85/hour I'm pretty sure he didn't have time to pull all of the drain plugs, run it with/without thermostat, lovingly squirt MMF in key spots, etc. Motor ran fine next spring. Just saying.

[CalebD]

I also have a P30, and I'm in the Rhode River, middle Bay. My previous owner says that as the final step, he'd start the engine and spray MMO fogging oil into the flame arrester/intake until the engine stalls.

Good? Bad? Opinions?

Actually this sounds like a pretty good idea; coat the air intake side with a light coating of lightweight oil like MMO or fogging oil. I've never used this as a last step before. I'm not sure that I will do it though as it does not seem to be needed, in my experience.

I'm sure that Loki9 is right and the drain plugs you want to remove are the block drain plugs, not the 'freeze plugs' which are different. It is optimal to be able to drain the block using these plugs if you are able to clear out any crud that may have built up in there. I'll admit that I don't always do this though as the access is poor on my boat (perhaps to my own detriment). I have become accustomed to draining my raw water pump after winterizing and letting it drain over time. Perhaps this winter I'll find the rear block drain plug on my A4 and try to remove it as well.

What is it with all you new P30 owners? Is Pearson still making them?
We raced against one a few years ago that was usually our nemesis on the race course. Good sailing boats.

I hope to get down the the Chessy soon for one last overnight sail.

[Laker]

Sabina was in a heated shed for 6 years , so it's been a while since I winterized. As best I can remember , I did the following on the hard :

Briefly ran engine , all hoses attached , to belch raw water out of system

Disconnected intake at thru hull and discharge at standpipe , inserted both into bucket of antifreeze

Ran engine until antifreeze in bucket was steamy hot and temp gauge told me that operating temp was reached

Fogged with MMO at spark arrester

Shut down , MMO injected thru spark plug holes

Easy procedure , no drain plugs to fight with , block full of antifreeze until spring start up.

Anything wrong with this procedure?

From the land of -20 F. , Laker

[smosher]

I'm not sure 1. If the starter can provide enough rotation for the pump to fill the engine with antifreeze. 2. I wouldn't run the starter any longer than 10 - 15 sec.

I place the end of hose into the bottle of antifreeze and I have another bottle cap off ready to go. Start the engine, wait untill 1st bottle empty, put hose into
into 2nd bottle. When its empty I shut down the engine.

[Laker]

Smosh ,

If you were responding to my post , I was running the engine , not cranking it.

[smosher]

I must be getting senile, I thought someone asked if they could antifreeze the engine just with the starter and not running the motor.

Steve

[Laker]

I think someone did ask that question , but I do not think it was recent on this thread.

[Laker]

I am re-running this in the hope that someone will answer and/or comment regarding the question at the bottom. Thanks in advance , Laker.


Sabina was in a heated shed for 6 years , so it's been a while since I winterized. As best I can remember , I did the following on the hard :

Briefly ran engine , all hoses attached , to belch raw water out of system

Disconnected intake at thru hull and discharge at standpipe , inserted both into bucket of antifreeze

Ran engine until antifreeze in bucket was steamy hot and temp gauge told me that operating temp was reached

Fogged with MMO at spark arrester

Shut down , MMO injected thru spark plug holes

Easy procedure , no drain plugs to fight with , block full of antifreeze until spring start up.

Anything wrong with this procedure?

From the land of -20 F. , Laker

[allengc43]

my boat is winterized and on the hard, however , the local marina closed the pumps before I could top off the tank.
The tank is half full. Probably need about 8-9 gallons. Can I use any other fuel? eg mid grade or premium?

any additives recommended in addition to the star tron enzyme fuel treatment which I added to the tank (1 1/2 oz)

[smosher]

Ideally, non ethanol gas and if Star Tron has worked for you in the past, why change. I'm sure others have their preference.

Fwiw I use StarTron and MMO.

Steve

[Ajax]

Ajax, Good luck with the racing! I love the way the P30 sails, our first boat was a brand new First 29 and yet I swear this new girl is faster on all points except maybe hard on the wind. Let me know how you do.

Off topic: she has a newly installed furler and yet came with a full suite of North hank on headsails (spinnaker, 145, 125 and a light genny that I left on the boat) If you are interested in any (or a spare pole), PM or email me.

Yeah, I'm loving it. Check your PM's. :D

[Ajax]

The block drain plugs are on the starboard side of the motor. Note that we are talking about 1/8" NPT drain plugs, which are not "freeze plugs". "Freeze plugs" are pressed into the block and only removed during an overhaul. The forward drain plug is behind the starter. It's possible to get to it without removing the starter, but it isn't easy. The aft plug should have a pipe nipple in it that extends out past the accessory drive. Hopefully, it won't break off when you try to remove the end cap. I've worked on two A4s now, one had a brass extension that opened easily, the other had an iron/steel extension that broke off right at the block when I tried to open it.

Access to the starboard side of the A4 is really poor in a P30, so I'd probably leave the plugs in and just run more antifreeze through it.

I'm going to have a look anyway, but if you're right about the poor access, I hope you're right that not removing them won't cause the block to explode this winter.

[positron]

If your tank is half full, it might be better to drain it over the winter. I use a squeeze bulb for an outboard motor, and enough tubing to thread the outlet hose through the cockpit drain to a can on the ground. Once I get it going it doesn't need much help from me. Come spring I dump a couple of gallons of gas in the tank and siphon that out too.

[sastanley]

I'm going to have a look anyway, but if you're right about the poor access, I hope you're right that not removing them won't cause the block to explode this winter.

Bah! Ajax, you have plenty of access. :) - you just need to become wise in the ways of the contortionist. :D - The aft drain is between the distributor and the alternator belt. If as original, I think most were were galvanized :rolleyes:, 1/8" x 6" pipe nipples. Mine broke off long ago..some just put a plug back in, or I had to enlarge mine to 1/4" NPT since there was so much corrosion. I have good enough access I could probably skip the nipple and just have a plug in there since the 1/4" nipple is uncomfortably close to the alternator belt.

BTW - The Moyer panoramic motor on the home page is a great way to scan the motor up close from the comfort of your PC to figure out where things are. :cool:

[ndutton]

I'm not a winterizer but if it hasn't been done in a while what a great time to remove the sideplate altogether. By next spring the waterjacket would be thoroughly cleaned, the starter, alternator and associated brackets cleaned up, fresh fasteners and gasket and the block drains cleaned up and functional for the next time.

[Kuzka]

My Ericson 29 is moored in Victoria BC Canada - the temperature at ocean level seldom reaches 32 degrees F - I have a dehumidifier that keeps the humidity on board at 35 to 40% and approximately 1 to 2 degrees above the ambient temp. If it gets colder I can activate an 110V heater that keeps the hull at 34 degrees or warmer. What would you recommend regarding winterizing the engine and cooling system. I also take the boat out for a half hour motor once per month. There is also a problem in Canada finding Marvel Miracle Oil. I have spoken with my auto mechanic and he identified challenges using an unleaded fuel that the engine was probably originally designed for so the MMO sounds like the perfect solution??

[joe_db]

32 won't freeze salt water, so if you're SURE it never gets colder than that, you might not need to do anything.

[Laker]

Why is it that you cannot buy Marvel Mystery Oil in Canada?

[old-sailer]

I purchased a C&C with the A4 in it and the previous owner showed me some things which horrified me, so I need opinions here before proceeding.

1) He is using Valvoline 10W30 car oil in the engine. My understanding is the A4 uses a wet clutch. So my thinking is it should have motorcycle oil in it designed for wet clutch systems. I'm thinking 10W40 Mobil 1 motorcycle oil. He had to hold the gearshift level down in reverse or it would pop out.

2) When he shuts down the engine for the last time in the fall he pours oil in the spark arrestor until the engine stalls. This fills the cylinders with oil for the winter he tells me. I assume it also fouls the plugs. I prefer to squirt a bit in the cylinders after removing the plugs. My Marine Surveyor mentioned the spark arrestor is covered in oil and should be cleaned.

3) Plug spark plug wires are taped together in a clump. Why I don't know. I have purchased new wires and plugs anyway.

Thoughts please...

[Marian Claire]

This may help with question one. http://www.moyermarine.com/faq/3.6.html Dan S/V Marian Claire

[old-sailer]

This may help with question one. http://www.moyermarine.com/faq/3.6.html Dan S/V Marian Claire

I was more concerned with item (2). Pouring oil in the spark arrester. I intend to use the motorcycle multigrade oil because of the wet clutch.

[ndutton]

From what I've read around here (I don't winterize and my heart goes out to those that need to) the spark plugs are trashed in the Spring after start-up regardless of what type of oil you're putting in the cylinders. Also, I think tossing motor oil in the intake is a good way to clog up the very small passages in the carburetor. The textbook method is squirting a shot or two of Marvel Mystery Oil into the spark plug holes.

As for the preferred oil in consideration of the wet "clutch" (to apply a motorcycle analogy), straight 30 weight detergent motor oil is recommended by our host and Rotella seems to be popular with many knowledgeable members.

[Laker]

The A4 tranny has a strong detent for forward ; no detent in reverse. Holding reverse is normal. A thread on oils for the A4 on this forum a while back made me a Rotella convert. I have stopped wondering about other oils because my engine is happy.

Fogging the A4 by feeding MMO thru the carb is a long established part of winterization , or pickeling. This applies to winter prep in cold climates (like 43 dg. north) , or warm climates in the case of prolonged inactivity. Yes , the plugs become a mess , but that is why God made spark plug cleaners. I use the gummy plugs for spring start-up , then , once the engine is recommissioned I swap out for new plugs , clean the dirty ones and keep them as spares. (Actually , after the gummy plugs are run through a cleaner they are perfectly good to go.)

I cannot guess why the PO bound the plug wires together. You are correct in flagging that.

All in all , your problems are minor and you should have a happy engine soon. Enjoy your Atomic Four!

[Ajax]

I think pouring 10w30 into the carb is bogus. I could see doing it with MMO, which is a much lighter oil.

Even better, would be MMO fogging spray.

[ILikeRust]

He had to hold the gearshift level down in reverse or it would pop out.

This is normal for the A4 reversing gear - there is a firm detent in forward, but none in reverse. You have to hold the lever to keep it in reverse or it will just slide back out.

When he shuts down the engine for the last time in the fall he pours oil in the spark arrestor until the engine stalls.

Depending on what oil he's using, that actually should be fine. Fogging oil or Marvel Mystery Oil are fine. I don't think I would do it with crankcase oil, though.

My Marine Surveyor mentioned the spark arrestor is covered in oil and should be cleaned.

Sure.

Keep in mind the Atomic 4 basically is a 1930's/1940's utility engine design, representing state-of-the-art technology of that era. It's a little brute of an engine, being all cast iron and steel. It is not a high-rpm, twitchy, lightweight, aluminum alloy motorcycle engine and is much more robust and simple than a lot of modern engines of similar displacement and power.

[joe_db]

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_109292_-1?cid=chanintel_google&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=109292 ;)
I wouldn't use normal lube oil for this job.

[old-sailer]

Yes I could see "fogging" with a thin oil but not pouring 10W30 down the carb. That still bothers me. I see Don recommends removing the plugs and squirting.

The A4 tranny has a strong detent for forward ; no detent in reverse. Holding reverse is normal. A thread on oils for the A4 on this forum a while back made me a Rotella convert. I have stopped wondering about other oils because my engine is happy.

Fogging the A4 by feeding MMO thru the carb is a long established part of winterization , or pickeling. This applies to winter prep in cold climates (like 43 dg. north) , or warm climates in the case of prolonged inactivity. Yes , the plugs become a mess , but that is why God made spark plug cleaners. I use the gummy plugs for spring start-up , then , once the engine is recommissioned I swap out for new plugs , clean the dirty ones and keep them as spares. (Actually , after the gummy plugs are run through a cleaner they are perfectly good to go.)

I cannot guess why the PO bound the plug wires together. You are correct in flagging that.

All in all , your problems are minor and you should have a happy engine soon. Enjoy your Atomic Four!

[old-sailer]

Thanks for the responses. You've pretty much confirmed my thoughts.

I was happy to learn holding reverse is normal.

No more crankcase oil down the carb. I'll squirt in the spark plug holes.

I'm replacing the wires. plugs, and adding Moyer's dip stick extension.

I'm going to try the Mobil 1 motorcycle oil... I have great faith in Mobil 1.

I'm also going to drop a bit of Seafoam in the gas.

Hopefully I can make it happy.

I have already added the 3 blade prop to get more poop out of her as suggested by others here.

[old-sailer]

Many of these items that you folks see at West Marine in the US are illegal in Canada because of their pollution value, so it's really hard to get an equivalent product at times. We have a West Marine here in Kingston and the manager explained to me that many of these products in the catalog are not available here because of this. They are attempting to acquire replacement products that meet Canadian Clean Air requirements but it's a tough road. We are no longer allowed to use insecticides for Pete's sake. Only soap. I have to sneak over the New York and smuggle the stuff home to kill the ants that love my home each summer. If it keeps up I'll move into the boat for the summer. At least there's no ants.


http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_109292_-1?cid=chanintel_google&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=109292 ;)
I wouldn't use normal lube oil for this job.

[jhwelch]

You will be doing something of an experiment using Mobil 1 motorcycle oil. At least for your first season stick with what has been proven to work by others (I have used 30w Penzoil across 2 motors for a total running time of about 8,500 hours).

[old-sailer]

True, but my concern is the wet clutch. 30 weight oil from the 70's and 80's is substantially different from the modern oils. Oils now have additives not available back then. While possibly good for the engine parts they are not good for the clutch. I have seen wet clutches destroyed by modern oils. Thus my experiment as you call it.

Actually Robert Hess, our Canadian equivalent of Don Moyer recommends 10W40 oil for use up here because of the operating temperature in which the A4 is expected to run in our colder water.


You will be doing something of an experiment using Mobil 1 motorcycle oil. At least for your first season stick with what has been proven to work by others (I have used 30w Penzoil across 2 motors for a total running time of about 8,500 hours).

[Laker]

Rotella. If that fails , use Rotella.

[lapls]

Pouring oil is the old way of winterizing, if you look at an original A-4 manual this is the way to winterize it, remove spark arrester, pour engine oil while engine is running until it stops, then close intake and exhaust with waxed paper to prevent moisture to go into engine..

I used to drain the block with the 3 drain plugs only but since the threads ar stripped I now put anti-freeze after having removed the thermostat ( late model ).
Once anti-freeze starts exiting the exhaust I rush into the cabin and squirt fogging oil until it dies ( you must manually increase speed in order to fog it properly before it dies ).
I then put a little in the cylinders and replace spark plugs. In spring I just need to clean the plugs and it starts within a few seconds.
Of course I also winterize the fuel system and remove the water pump impeller in fall.
BTW, I have been using Castrol motorcycle oil for the past 12 years and it does a good job ( no slippery agent , good rust protection ).

[old-sailer]

We're of like minds... I like the motorcycle oil also.



Pouring oil is the old way of winterizing, if you look at an original A-4 manual this is the way to winterize it, remove spark arrester, pour engine oil while engine is running until it stops, then close intake and exhaust with waxed paper to prevent moisture to go into engine..

I used to drain the block with the 3 drain plugs only but since the threads ar stripped I now put anti-freeze after having removed the thermostat ( late model ).
Once anti-freeze starts exiting the exhaust I rush into the cabin and squirt fogging oil until it dies ( you must manually increase speed in order to fog it properly before it dies ).
I then put a little in the cylinders and replace spark plugs. In spring I just need to clean the plugs and it starts within a few seconds.
Of course I also winterize the fuel system and remove the water pump impeller in fall.
BTW, I have been using Castrol motorcycle oil for the past 12 years and it does a good job ( no slippery agent , good rust protection ).