strong secondary discharge?

[CaptainHatty]

Hello again Afourians.

I'm relatively new here. This is only my second post, so bare with me.

I've been having (what I think to be) some serious ignition/spark issues. This is our first boat. It has an early model A-4 with points currently. My problems all started last week when I was getting ready to install a fuel water seperator in the fuel line. I turned the ignition on to get ready to use the electric fuel pump to bleed the lines.. Well, long story short... Some people showed up and I left the igition on and oil boiled out of the coil. :mad:

I have some questions:

So, I've replace the coil and the engine still won't start. I've been through most of Don's 'Troubleshooting lack of spark' and I don't have what I would describe as a strong secondary discharge in step #2. So my question is what is a strong secondary discharge? I have to hold the secondary lead from the center of the distributor VERY close (1/16th) to the cylinder head and even then the arc is what I would describe as weak. Definitely not the SNAP I was expecting, though I have never done this before so I have no idea what the expected behavior is.
Could I have fried some other component other than the coil?
What is this? It connects to GND, POS, Electric Fuel Pump (through oil pressure switch), and the starter. Could this be damaged as well?


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[edwardc]

It's a relay.

Need a little more detail on how its wired up.

[Maurice]

If you have electronic iginition it's possible, even very likely, that it is done. If you have points and condenser look at both...and you may need to change the condenser. If the electronic ignition or condenser goes you will get no spark from the coil.

I'm not the electronic wizzard. NDutton, Hanley, and SStanley are pretty good at it though.

[sastanley]

I'm not the electronic wizzard. NDutton, Hanley, and SStanley are pretty good at it though.


Ha ha...uh... :confused:

Tell me why I can't get that darn Sabre 28 down at Pt. Lookout Marina to run then!?!? :p

Got the same problem..installed a new electronic ignition, but don't seem to be getting any spark. I at least got the carb cleaned up so it wasn't dripping fuel down into the bilge. ;) :eek:

Sorry, back to Hatty's problem...
There is usually a little sticker on the EI unit..if you've fried it, that sticker gets all rumpled up. Kinda like the little 'pink hash mark' patch on cell phones/batteries...they know if you bring it broken whether you dropped it in water cuz the pink patch goes blurry in water.
However, an EI unit either works or it doesn't, so a 'weak' spark means it is working.

As for that relay, if it is wired between the fuel pump & the OPSS (oil pressure safety switch) it gets powered by the OPSS, and then it provides power to the fuel pump, I would guess.

[CaptainHatty]

If you have points and condenser look at both...and you may need to change the condenser.

Is there a way to test the condenser(s)? (If I recall correctly, I have 2 on my A-4)

[sastanley]

If you have a condenser, than you do not have EI.

Um..they are pretty cheap..if it were me, I'd replace the cap rotor points & condenser as a set unless you are confident of their age and properly functioning..I am not sure how to test a condenser, but it is on the points plate under the distributor cap. :confused:

[Mark S]

[I]f it were me, I'd replace the cap rotor points & condenser as a set . . .

Ditto. No harm is ever done by replacing points and condenser and as long as you're under the cap you might as well replace the cap and rotor as well.

Mark

[CaptainHatty]

If you have a condenser, than you do not have EI.
I do not have EI.

I am not sure how to test a condenser, but it is on the points plate under the distributor cap. :confused:
Mine are on the side of the distributor.

Um..they are pretty cheap..if it were me, I'd replace the cap rotor points & condenser as a set unless you are confident of their age and properly functioning..
They are OLD, no idea how old.
Here is my dilemma. I just recently purchased an EI distributor with plans to install it in the near future so I don't have to deal with points! My worry is introducing even MORE variables in to the troubleshooting... Should I just go ahead and install the EI, or wait and get the points working first?

[hanleyclifford]

If you left the key on without running the engine and boiled the coil then it's a pretty good bet that you fried the points and condenser as well. Replace coil, points and condenser. Put up "Do Not Disturb" sign on dock.

[JOHN COOKSON]

There is a way to tell if you have a strong enough spark to at least start the engine. Attach a correctly gapped spark plug to a wire, hold the plug against the engine to ground it, turn the engine over with the starter and see if you have enough voltage to jump the gap.

I would like to see a picture of your twin external condensers. Do you have a ballast resistor(s)?

Maybe you fried the points, and maybe if you install new ones or file and gap the old ones, maybe the dwell angle will be more correct and maybe you will have a stronger spark. Maybe that is.

The condenser lead should not be shorted to the case. This is not a very good test because it may short when placed in service. When in doubt throw it out.

You are cranking the no start engine with the through hull valve to the water pump closed?

TRUE GRIT

[smosher]

You Should see a bright sparc, look at the color, should be bright blue
and you should hear a snap.

if not take off the cap and push the points apart, I'd replace them. The contact will burn and fuse together,

Start with the center wire in the cap, turn over engine with ignition on, then if that works, try a spark plug end.

[Dave Neptune]

Hatty, I'm chiming in a bit late and will offer my$.02. We know you have a problem in the ignition and you have a brand new and far superior system in your hands. Go 4 it, make the change now and no more points and timing changes and/or adjustments. Be sure and get the correct coil for your EI. I have run one for 26 years now and never been stuck:rolleyes:!!!
I would also check all of the hot leads and grounds associated with your ignition when installing. The Draw that killed the coil :eek: could have caused a bit of arching at any weak connection making it worse, worth the check.
No better time to replace the old style than when it is broke and you have the best repair in hand.;)

Dave Neptune:cool:

[ndutton]

Hatty,

I'm going to disagree with Dave - somewhat - and that doesn't happen very often. However, it's 7 P.M. local time and my wife is looking at me stink-eyed about going out to dinner so hang tight, be back atcha a little later.

[ndutton]

OK, let's rock.

I agree with Dave over the superiority of electronic ignition if for no other reason than there are no parts to wear, replace or fall out of adjustment.

Here's where I differ:

Since your EI is a full EI distributor, unless you're well versed in distributor removal and replacement being sure to get the new pinion gear in exactly the right tooth you'll be risking a full timing exercise in addition to your current problem. Because of that risk I'd hold off on the EI for now. Certainly do it later, just not right now.
Resolving the current system as it is will leave you with a known good backup when the move to EI is made.


Here are a few other thoughts:

I'm relatively certain you cooked the condenser(s) too. The one on the outside is, I believe, intended for electric noise reduction. I'd get rid of it and go back to the original configuration of a single condenser inside the distributor.
I agree with changing everything related to the distributor: points, condenser, cap and rotor. They're cheap and there will be no wondering if they're functioning.
I also agree with examining the wiring related to the + side of the coil just to make sure.
As previously warned, keep the raw water intake closed until she fires.
Consider installing the Moyer Engine Warning Alarm Kit found here (http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=KTAS_01_460). On it's face, it alarms if the oil pressure and/or temperature are out of parameter. This may not seem like it matters with the current situation but an unintended side benefit is it also alarms in the case of absentmindedness. If you repeat the recent performance of turning on the ignition and getting sidetracked, the lack of oil pressure will result in an alarm condition, an excellent reminder. It's cheap and easy to install.
If you're not experienced at distributor removal and replacement, please post same on the forum before attempting installation of the new distributor later on. We can help.
If you decide to do the EI now, you need to be certain your new coil and old spark plug wires are compatible or you'll be chasing down more problems.

[kiskadee]

The small black box is a relay. Sounds like it's there to provide power to the fuel pump when the starter is engaged, and before the engine builds oil pressure. It shouldn't have suffered from the ignition being left on. Even if it's dead it would only delay fuel flow a bit until there's oil pressure. You can get a replacement at any auto parts store for under $10.

Don't install the EI distributor until the engine is running, or it will be difficult to diagnose potential compount faults. File the points with a very small flat file and install a new condensor on the timing plate. Filing the points isn't advised if you're keeping them, but it'll be OK to just get her running since they'll be replaced when you go EI. The dist cap and rotor should be fine for now as well.

Make sure the battery is fully charged so that you'll get the hottest spark even with the starter turning. Give each spark plug cable and the coil HT cable a couple twists back and forth to ensure good contact. Spray a shot of starter fluid into the carb, as a weak spark will ignite it easier than gasoline vapour.
Good luck.

[CaptainHatty]

I would like to see a picture of your twin external condensers. Do you have a ballast resistor(s)?


Here is a picture of the twin external condensers....

4647

[CaptainHatty]

So, before reading most of the advice about fixing the points first I decided to pull the distributor. After further inspection, it's in pretty rough shape. Also, the weekend is coming and I don't really want to wait for the parts. Additionally, money is tight and saving even the $70 - $100 on condenser, cap, points, and insulator kit seems to make sense. I decided to make use of the parts that I have. Here is what I'm working with:


Distributor - Pertronix distributor (new) (http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=IGEM_13.1_347)
Coil (with internal resistance).
(http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=IGEM_05_31)
Hold-down bracket (http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=IGEM_13.2_496)
Spark plug wire set (http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/shopper.cgi?preadd=action&key=IGEM_07_33) at the beginning of the season.


So far I've found TDC for #1 and removed the distributor.

4648

I still have mechanical tach, so this is the next problem. (I didn't have the tools on the boat to cut the bracket, so I quit for the evening)

4649

I plan to just trim the bracket a bit so that it will fit.... more to come.

[sastanley]

Hmm...that old distributor has some markings that might say Prestolite on it. Early model?

[ndutton]

The decision to purchase replacements from Moyer tells me there's success in your future. With that strategy you have assured yourself of having all the right components, also compatible with each other.

The chances of achieving that at the local auto parts boutique are slim. "What car is it for?" is the typical introductory question usually followed up with a blank stare after you tell them it's an A-4, then "Do you want to add GoJo hand cleaner and an air freshener to your order? We have them on sale right now."

GAWD I hate those places.

[smosher]

When I goto auto parts stores, I just give them part numbers

[Carl-T705]

If your diagnose is correct and you burned up the coil and condenser I would check to be sure the hot wire feed to the distributor isn't burn somewhere as well and is still sending 12 volts to the new coil. It's difficult to offer advice without knowing your level of mechanical expertise and what you have already checked. Have you checked to see if the battery is still fully charged? Have you checked all the electrical connections,? they really suffer when things overheat. Sometimes a lot of parts get changed before it's realized there is no voltage getting past the key switch. PS as a quick note, you actually have the distributor hold down upside down in your picture, flip it over before installing

[CaptainHatty]

Modified the Hold-down bracket.

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[CaptainHatty]

After installing the new EI she started right up the first try! Thanks for the help everyone!

[hanleyclifford]

Please check your voltage at coil+. It should not exceed 14 volts.