Prop Questions

[13jeff13]

SO not to take away from others thread about prop issues,, I would like to remove my prop tube hose, and need direction with this en-devour as well. I cleaned up the prop and attaching Nut, and have yet to try to remove it,, NOT SURE if it is reverse thread or not,, and letting it soak with some CLR to remove the build up around the threads.

Is it better to remove the prop and bring it out thru the cabin,, OR, remove the coupler and the "packing nut" and take it out thru the outside? Not sure what the packing nut aperture's proper name is... the Cutless Bearing isn't loose,, but looks original,, and a little dry rotted. SAME with the Hose that attaches to the "Packing Nut" and the Prop Tube,,, doesn't look terrible,, but Original, and dry rot looking,, the Hose clamps where almost rusted off,, just broke off,, nothing left to unscrew. But welded on by time.

Lastly, ,can you guys decipher the Numbers on the Prop,, do they have meaning,, or just casting numbers?

As Always,, Much appreciative of all Info,, Help.

Jeff

[Marian Claire]

Look forward to the posts on this as I have never removed a prop. I believe the #s mean you have a 11" diameter 7" pitch right hand, spins clockwise when viewed from astern, bored for a 7/8" shaft. Dan S/V Marian Claire
Edit: A 11x7 is on the small end of the recommended two blade props for direct drive A-4. Assuming direct drive by the 3 bolt coupling.

[sastanley]

Ya hoo! Go for it Jeff. You don't want to discover prop shaft or stuffing box problems after launch. Now is the time to pull all that apart and make it right. A cutless bearing is about $40. A new stuffing box is about $75. You may be able to get away with new "stuffing box hose" & some goretex packing (back in the old days they simply used exhaust rated hose, the newer stuff is much more substantial and I recommend it.)

Those nuts on the stuffing box are regular thread. The usual procedure is for them to be jammed together so they don't move...get the skinny nut loose from the fat nut (where the packing is hidden) and then the fat nut should spin off. They should spin off with the wrench handle headed in the stbd direction.


First step: get the couplers apart at the back end of the engine
step two: get shaft half of the coupler removed from the shaft

[13jeff13]

It all seems so clear when someone else says what you only suspect. I seen the 11 x 7 on the back side and didn't correlate the 11RH7 to mean what you stated.. Duh moment.. :D,, I then too assume that since the Grampian is a 1973 model, ,the 1 73 is when it was cast,, in Grand Rapids, Michigan,, by perhaps a company Sailor? or perhaps just meant to be for a sailor....


Still looking forward to instructions on how to proceed.

oh yeah,, I already removed the stainless cotter pin from the nut area at the prop.

[sastanley]

Ooops...Jeff, I think you are right...maybe an 11" diameter by 7" pitch prop..ignore my other post..I didn't look closely enough at the extra pictures.

Michigan Wheel made a "sailor" prop I think, built for sailboats. those numbers don't really mean anything to us...that's what the prop shop guys are for. :D

Now, you gotta figure out a way to hold the shaft still so you can break the prop nut loose. :o

[13jeff13]

I see. So leave the prop on and remove the stuffing box and coupler. I read somewhere that the coupler shouldnt be reused? Is that good info?

[ILikeRust]

I read somewhere that the coupler shouldnt be reused? Is that good info?

IMHO, yes, that is good info. Other might disagree. If I were to do it again, I might go with a split coupler. In any case, I would recommend that you get a new coupler and have it fitted and faced.

Here are a few sites that will be helpful to you:

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/stuffing_box

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/fitting_a_prop

[13jeff13]

I got the Hose cut,, it was very dry rotted, and came apart pretty easy. Now the rest of the components are soaking in Kroil til Thursday. I hope they come apart as easy. :rolleyes:

[13jeff13]

Got a chance to wipe down the engine compartment,, Them wires look so much better in them Black Wire Holder Tubes.

[Laker]

I was going to post the stuffing box essay , but rust beat me to it. Study it closely , great stuff.

Keep up the good work ; when you are finished you will really know your boat.

CJK

[Loki9]

If it was me, I'd pull the prop off the shaft and then remove the shaft from inside, leaving the coupler on the shaft. You'll save yourself some aggravation as the coupler does not come off easily and if you do get it off, you may need to replace it.

[hanleyclifford]

From the point where you're now at it would be just as simple to pull the prop and then withdraw the shaft and coupler forward. Clean up and then decide about the coupler: I reuse them routinely.

[msmith10]

If you do pull the shaft forward and leave the coupler on, take it to a machine shop and make sure the face of the coupler is perpendicular to the shaft. Otherwise no amount of alignment will fix the resulting shaft wobble. I speak from personal experience.
You need to do this if you replace the coupler, also.

[sastanley]

If you do pull the shaft forward and leave the coupler on, take it to a machine shop and make sure the face of the coupler is perpendicular to the shaft. Otherwise no amount of alignment will fix the resulting shaft wobble. I speak from personal experience.
You need to do this if you replace the coupler, also.

+1

Take the easiest route to remove the paritial assembly from the boat, and let the pros deal with removing the coupler. I damaged mine forcing it off & had to replace it.

once removed, take both coupler pieces & the shaft to a prop or machine shop and let them do the fit/facing/aligning, so everything will be true when you re-assemble. If you plan to re-use the prop, take that in too and let them balance that as well. :cool:

[jhwelch]

Once a coupler has been fitted/faced does it have to undergo this process if you replace the shaft? It seems to me that all shafts would fit into the coupler the same way. Last summer I paid for fit/facing when I replaced my shaft and kind of wondered if I was being "shafted".

-Jonathan

[ILikeRust]

Yes, the coupler has to be a reasonably precise interference fit - a snug press fit. Which means it should be reamed with reasonable precision on a lathe, and then the coupler faced on the lathe to assure the face is perpendicular.

[13jeff13]

Yes, the coupler has to be a reasonably precise interference fit - a snug press fit. Which means it should be reamed with reasonable precision on a lathe, and then the coupler faced on the lathe to assure the face is perpendicular.

Does the same apply to the split coupler?


Jeff

[13jeff13]

From the point where you're now at it would be just as simple to pull the prop and then withdraw the shaft and coupler forward. Clean up and then decide about the coupler: I reuse them routinely.

Yes Hanley, I Like Your suggestion. It will be much easier to work on the coupler and stuffing box on my bench, ,than in the belly of the boat.


:)

Jeff

[13jeff13]

I was going to post the stuffing box essay , but rust beat me to it. Study it closely , great stuff.

Keep up the good work ; when you are finished you will really know your boat.

CJK

Thanks,, You are right,, ,it is such a learning experience, and to know her top to bottom will make me a much more confidant sailor.

This site and the Guys here are such a wealth of knowledge,, a group I am proud to be a part of.

Jeff

[13jeff13]

If it was me, I'd pull the prop off the shaft and then remove the shaft from inside, leaving the coupler on the shaft. You'll save yourself some aggravation as the coupler does not come off easily and if you do get it off, you may need to replace it.

Yep Jeff I agree,, Now the Nut that holds the Prop on, I haven't looked a great deal at it, and I am sure I can figure it out, But are they normally reversed threaded, or other. Also the Prop itself,,, is it being pressed onto a taper,, and I believe a Key as well?

I will read thru Bill's "I LIKE RUST" post/link as well, I gave them a glance on my Android today, ,Had to do a double at work, gives things time to soak, haha.



Jeff

[13jeff13]

+1

Take the easiest route to remove the paritial assembly from the boat, and let the pros deal with removing the coupler. I damaged mine forcing it off & had to replace it.

once removed, take both coupler pieces & the shaft to a prop or machine shop and let them do the fit/facing/aligning, so everything will be true when you re-assemble. If you plan to re-use the prop, take that in too and let them balance that as well. :cool:

Great thoughts Shawn, ,and from everyone. It was your Prop Tube Rebuild, ,that was in the back of my mind, every since I read it, that really encouraged me to give mine a good looking over. Glad I did.

Thanks


Jeff

[sastanley]

Yep Jeff I agree,, Now the Nut that holds the Prop on, I haven't looked a great deal at it, and I am sure I can figure it out, But are they normally reversed threaded, or other. Also the Prop itself,,, is it being pressed onto a taper,, and I believe a Key as well?

I will read thru Bill's "I LIKE RUST" post/link as well, I gave them a glance on my Android today, ,Had to do a double at work, gives things time to soak, haha.



Jeff

Jeff,
Yes, the prop is on a taper with a key..It is a process of tightening a puller onto it and slowly continuing to tighten and tighten, and POW!, suddenly it pops loose. The coupler also has a key, but as Bill noted, it is a 'snug' press fit with a dimple in the shaft and a lockscrew. Mine was so tight, I had to press the coupler off the shaft one turn of the wrench at a time.

I don't think the stuffing box nuts are reverse threaded. I have a note written in Sharpie in the little access hatch on my boat which remindes me which way is "loose" on the stuffing box nuts. I am pretty sure they are normal right-handed threads. :D

[Loki9]

Yep Jeff I agree,, Now the Nut that holds the Prop on, I haven't looked a great deal at it, and I am sure I can figure it out, But are they normally reversed threaded, or other. Also the Prop itself,,, is it being pressed onto a taper,, and I believe a Key as well?

Jeff

It should be a normal right-hand nut holding the prop (plus a taper and a key). After removing the nut, you will need a puller to get the prop off. My boatyard had one I was able to borrow. Tighten the puller, and then give the prop a few whacks with a hammer to knock it loose.

-Jeff

[Laker]

Props have extremely good memory regarding the bond to the shaft - a good case for heat application?

[hanleyclifford]

The "key", if you will, to stressless prop and shaft management is a totally anal approach to cleaning the parts beginning with the keyway which should have it's inside corners squared and inspected with a magnifying glass. The key itself must be cleaned and sanded lightly on a flat surface using something like 400 wetordry. The tapered shaft hole on the prop itself is most challenging but should be cleaned until the key can be pushed thru by hand. At assembly all parts should be lightly oiled and fitted together by hand and seated before any mechanical pressure is applied. This will ensure solid and concentric assembly and most importantly, easy removal. Of course, this does not help now unless the PO did as above. I do not recommend the use of heat in this instance. Also, pullers are cheap and IMO should be part of the boat tool kit. FWIW

[msmith10]

The prop can be "lapped" onto the shaft just like lapping valve seats. Apply a very fine compound to the tapered section of the shaft and "lap" the prop onto it. After that, I like to coat the taper with some anti-seize before reinstalling the prop. If you're in salt water, you may prefer to use plain grease, since anti-seize does contain metal particles and theoretically could set up a dissimilar metal problem. This isn't as big a problem in fresh water.

[13jeff13]

From the point where you're now at it would be just as simple to pull the prop and then withdraw the shaft and coupler forward. Clean up and then decide about the coupler: I reuse them routinely.

The prop came off fairly easy, I did apply a little heat to the thick part of the prop, and gave it several raps with the hammer, with my puller attached with a little pressure, and off she slid. The Prop shaft then came easily up in through the cabin, with the coupler and packing nut attached, to be removed on the bench.

Actually I see no reason to remove the coupler. Any thoughts?

I believe after cleaning things up,, I am going to reuse every thing, except of course the packing material,, :rolleyes:

[hanleyclifford]

The assembly can be checked for trueness by a machine shop, that is unless you have the dial indicator and pillow block set up yourself.

[CalebD]

Jeff,
Lots of progress. Your stuffing box and shaft cleaned up nicely.
Looks like you may have a bronze shaft? You probably know that bronze is a bit softer then SS. When we removed our bronze shaft this past fall it was badly worn at the cutless bearing so we are getting a new SS shaft. Yours looks to be in good condition if it is still 'true'. No reason not to reuse the shaft, coupler and stuffing box if the shaft and coupler are 'true'.
A good prop shop will test your shaft and not charge you anything if everything checks out.
I'm sure you are not planning on re-using the old hose (aka, shaft log). Here is a link for the replacement hose for the stuffing box: http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/hose-for-packing-box-1-3-4i.d.-f-1shaft-104000-/4,17904.html
I'm not sure why Moyer does not sell this kind of stuff.
Also, Shawn indicated that the cutless bearing replacement part is only about $40 ($50 with shipping). The cutless bearing is a part that is routinely replaced on a 10+ year cycle, although they can last longer then that, it seems. You would hate to put this all back together only to find out that you should have also replaced the cutless bearing as well. Do it now while you are there. Here is the place I think I bought ours from: http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/marine-bearings/cutless-bearings

Your shaft is in a strut so you can try pressing the old cutless bearing out. Our cutless is in the dead wood behind the keel in an aperture (no strut) and we tried pressing it out with no luck so we resorted to using a Sawzall with a long metal blade in it. A little careful sawing and it was done. Clean up the hole and freeze the new cutless before you try to press fit the new bearing into place.

You'll be glad to know that your entire drive train has been looked over and the parts that do eventually wear out (cutless, stern log and packing) have been replaced.

I haven't forgotten about you Shawn. I may have our prop shop turn your old 12x7 prop into a 13x8.

[13jeff13]

Jeff,
Lots of progress. Your stuffing box and shaft cleaned up nicely.
Looks like you may have a bronze shaft? You probably know that bronze is a bit softer then SS. When we removed our bronze shaft this past fall it was badly worn at the cutless bearing so we are getting a new SS shaft. Yours looks to be in good condition if it is still 'true'. No reason not to reuse the shaft, coupler and stuffing box if the shaft and coupler are 'true'.
A good prop shop will test your shaft and not charge you anything if everything checks out.
I'm sure you are not planning on re-using the old hose (aka, shaft log). Here is a link for the replacement hose for the stuffing box: http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/hose-for-packing-box-1-3-4i.d.-f-1shaft-104000-/4,17904.html
I'm not sure why Moyer does not sell this kind of stuff.
Also, Shawn indicated that the cutless bearing replacement part is only about $40 ($50 with shipping). The cutless bearing is a part that is routinely replaced on a 10+ year cycle, although they can last longer then that, it seems. You would hate to put this all back together only to find out that you should have also replaced the cutless bearing as well. Do it now while you are there. Here is the place I think I bought ours from: http://www.deepblueyachtsupply.com/marine-bearings/cutless-bearings

Your shaft is in a strut so you can try pressing the old cutless bearing out. Our cutless is in the dead wood behind the keel in an aperture (no strut) and we tried pressing it out with no luck so we resorted to using a Sawzall with a long metal blade in it. A little careful sawing and it was done. Clean up the hole and freeze the new cutless before you try to press fit the new bearing into place.

You'll be glad to know that your entire drive train has been looked over and the parts that do eventually wear out (cutless, stern log and packing) have been replaced.

I haven't forgotten about you Shawn. I may have our prop shop turn your old 12x7 prop into a 13x8.


Thanks Caleb, I appreciate the links. I would absolutely buy this stuff from our host here, if they had it available. You are correct, with the Cutless replaced I will have much more confidence in the whole drive train. I will definitely be checking out a prop shop about the true-ness of the shaft and the coupler,, which for now I plan on not removing.

Thanks

Jeff

[sastanley]

Jeff,

I haven't forgotten about you Shawn. I may have our prop shop turn your old 12x7 prop into a 13x8.

Caleb, no worries..that prop was doing me no good hanging in the garage. Whenever you get around to it and make a decision, we'll close the deal.

Jeff, As Caleb mentioned, I'd replace the cutless while you are there, as a matter of principal. Mine had a little rubber left in it even though it was 30 years old, and I was surprised how thin the outer metal of the bearing was. I beat up my strut pounding on it. A Dremel tool and their indispensable sanding drum ended up being the best tool..The Dremel was able to reach into each end far enough to meet in the middle & slice it open and it fell right out.

Here are some links so you don't have to read that epic thread again! :rolleyes:
Here is a link to the post about removal...
indigo Post #230 (http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?p=22721#post22721)

here is a link to the post about pressing in the new bearing.
indigo #269 (http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24454&postcount=269)

[CalebD]

Jeff,
By the way, if you have some time, the 'Indigo' thread Shawn pointed you to is really a pretty exhaustive compendium of all the moving parts in your drive train, right back to the rear oil seal.
I'm probably not quite as brave as Shawn as I'm not even contemplating re-doing the rear oil seal but he did it all and documented it very nicely.
Worth the read if you have the time.

[13jeff13]

Jeff,
By the way, if you have some time, the 'Indigo' thread Shawn pointed you to is really a pretty exhaustive compendium of all the moving parts in your drive train, right back to the rear oil seal.
I'm probably not quite as brave as Shawn as I'm not even contemplating re-doing the rear oil seal but he did it all and documented it very nicely.
Worth the read if you have the time.

Great read, and great pics with your documentation Shawn. I am happy to see the actual Cutless Bearing as it is coming out. I didn't realize the metal material was so thin. Good to Know, from someone who's been there. I started to take mine out tonight, but got sidetracked to the store with the kids. Took some before pics,, I'll get it out tomorrow I hope, and take some pics.

Thanks for all the support. What a great site.

Jeff

[Laker]

"I started to take mine out tonight, but got sidetracked to the store with the kids. "

Advantage to having boat in driveway : Easy access to boat & projects.

Disadvantage : Family has easy access to skipper.

On balance , you have a good thing going.

[sastanley]

Mmmmm..in yard storage! That would be the ticket. :cool: (but what Laker said is also true.)

If I recall correctly, I dug out most of the rubber with a chisel or whatever...in that "halfway out" picture, I'd spent an afternoon trying to chisel the edges which is why they are ragged...had I started with the Dremel right away the bearing would have looked more uniform I think. The burning rubber of the bearing with the Dremel smells pretty bad too!

If I were doing it again, I might try a long skinny fillet knife to fillet the rubber (it is glued to the metal sleeve part) out of there and get to mostly metal..then I'd go at it with a Dremel and have good light so you can see your progress.

It also looks like you have a very beefy strut...less chance to burn all the way thru.. :D

[jpian0923]

Have you read this article?

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass

[13jeff13]

Have you read this article?

http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/replacing_a_cutlass

Thanks Jim, that was a very clear description.

Just gets me wondering if I have those set screws, ,I don't see them if I do, ,but, How else does the bearing stay in place? Is it that tight of a fit? I have a hunch to go out and see if a magnet is attracted anywhere around where set screws may be. I will report back.

No Magnetic Draw anywhere,, but they could be Brass set screws.. non ferrous/magnetic.

[13jeff13]

"I started to take mine out tonight, but got sidetracked to the store with the kids. "

Advantage to having boat in driveway : Easy access to boat & projects.

Disadvantage : Family has easy access to skipper.

On balance , you have a good thing going.

Yep, the greatness is the bane.. Laker,, if I had to go to a yard all the time, I would never get anything done though, I feel. Driveway Sailing has it advantages for sure.

Hey Shawn,,, Did your Cutless have set screws holding it in place?


Thanks


Jeff

[CalebD]

Jeff,
That cutless bearing gets pushed in there with a lot of force so it is possible you do not have set screws. There were none on my boat but our bearing is housed in the deadwood and not a strut.
The picture below is from our cutless bearing press fit. We used either 1/2" or slightly larger threaded rod, plenty of washers and here is a tip: use a 'box wrench' to turn the nuts (gets a better grip in the nuts). We had to use a length of pipe over the box wrench to exert enough pressure to get that sucker pressed in there. A large adjustable wrench we were using mostly helped to round off the nuts as we tightened it down.
It looks easy on paper but it took us (2 grown men) over an hour of tightening the pressure nut while the other of us held the threaded rod at the 2 locked nuts on the end.
Another hint: put some oil on the rod and nuts. Also, freeze the new cutless bearing before inserting (helps shrink it ever so slightly). Keep the new cutless in a cooler with ice and your favorite beverage that you will enjoy later while being happy you got it done.
The folks that have a strut mounted cutless bearing can tell you more about whether it is likely that you have set screws in there.

[sastanley]

Jeff, I have great respect for MaineSail's site. He knows his stuff. I am sure I read that same article (and most of his others as well..his thru-hull/seacock/thread tutorial is invaluable.)

I seem to recall a similar ???:confused:??? moment on my boat. No set screws on the C-30...it is a press fit. The only real way to tell is to sand all the paint off until you get to bare metal & inspect the strut.

Caleb's advice is good...freeze that sucker until the last minute and you are ready to install...dishsoap is supposedly a good lubricant. I used Marvel Mystery Oil because I forgot the dishsoap. +1 on a 'real' wrench on the driving nut for pressing it in. A box end, or if you have invested in them, those ratchet box ends like "gear wrench" brand are awesome (I have a whole metric set for working on my Hondas..now i need an SAE set for the Atomic4!!)

[edwardc]

... Keep the new cutless in a cooler with ice and your favorite beverage that you will enjoy later while being happy you got it done....

Use dry ice instead. It's MUCH colder and produces much more contraction.

It's readily available. The Safeway grocery store near our marina carries it!

[jpian0923]

Drink you're favorite beverage before...much more enjoyable work that way. :D

[Laker]

Regarding set screws in strut : my assembly is somewhere in between strut and deadwood : the Col. 34 has a casting which is lag screwed to the trailing edge of the keel. Unlike a strut arrangement or a pressed right into the keel arrangement , I was able to remove the cutless housing casting from the hull for a bearing swap. My main point here is that there were no set screws , simply a press fitting. Freezing helped.

(note : we are using the term "deadwood" loosely here , I believe. Deadwood refers to the portion of a keel through which one could bore a hole without breaching to open cavity which comprises the bilge. I am sure that someone will verify ...)

Press on .....

[ILikeRust]

Just gets me wondering if I have those set screws, ,I don't see them if I do, ,but, How else does the bearing stay in place?

Mine were buried under layers of paint and filler. I had to chip around the stern tube to find the set screws.

Of course, my setup is different than yours - my cutless bearing is set in what passes for the "deadwood" in a fiberglass keel boat.