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-   -   What would you put on this A4? (http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9585)

alcodiesel 05-10-2016 09:32 PM

What would you put on this A4?
 
It's an original '76 A4 with less than 500 hrs., electronic ignition, Indigo oil filter, MMI raw water cooling pump, MMI oil change kit, MMI flame arrestor, MMI cooling bypass. It runs great- quiet and smooth. Oil pressure is 40 when hot. Never over heats. Raw water cooled. I am very happy with this A4.

I want to but it a present. What would you get her?

hanleyclifford 05-10-2016 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcodiesel (Post 99158)
It's an original '76 A4 with less than 500 hrs., electronic ignition, Indigo oil filter, MMI raw water cooling pump, MMI oil change kit, MMI flame arrestor, MMI cooling bypass. It runs great- quiet and smooth. Oil pressure is 40 when hot. Never over heats. Raw water cooled. I am very happy with this A4.

I want to but it a present. What would you get her?

Fresh water cooling.

Al Schober 05-10-2016 09:41 PM

+1 for Hanley. I totally agree.
Beyond that, how about a fuel pressure gauge for the carb inlet?

hanleyclifford 05-10-2016 09:54 PM

Less than 500 hrs? That's like finding a cherry 1955 Chevy. Give that engine the Best.

alcodiesel 05-10-2016 10:49 PM

Thank you.
That's what I am thinking: fresh water cooling.
I am thinking about the Indigo electric pump version.
Also I am thinking about MMI's temp and oil pressure warning system.

Note:
The guy I bought the boat from is dead and the hr meter was also dead at just over 400 hrs. so I really don't know how long the tach/hr meter was not working. The PO was so meticulous I am assuming it wasn't working for long and the fact the that engine sounds so good indicates possibly low hrs.

Thank you in advance for any comments/contentions/opinions.

ndutton 05-11-2016 09:34 AM

Agree with fresh water cooling, it is the single most important improvement you can make to extend the life of the engine. Since you have electronic ignition I suggest analyzing the system voltage-resistance-amperage balance to be sure it is within the specifications as we now understand them.

One other thing to consider and not often mentioned on the forum is the accessory drive lubrication hole modification.

joe_db 05-11-2016 09:39 AM

FWC for the win :cool:
After you see the crap you get out of cleaning the engine to prep for FWC, you will NEVER want water full of salt and algae in your engine again.
Also the Indigo thermostat is good thing to do along with FWC.

edwardc 05-11-2016 10:03 AM

Another strong vote for FWC!

The Garbone 05-11-2016 01:29 PM

Another good thing about FWC, only antifreeze in the block if your up north.

hanleyclifford 05-11-2016 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Garbone (Post 99188)
Another good thing about FWC, only antifreeze in the block if your up north.

Good observation. I might add that in my FWC system I plumb in the ability to drain the salt water side by means of a valve on the thru hull. Salt water can freeze.

alcodiesel 05-11-2016 08:46 PM

I copy FWC. Thanks guys. That is what I was thinking. Any comments on the Indigo electric FWC pump system vs belt or MMI?

sail_flathead_lake 05-11-2016 09:55 PM

Are you in freshwater or salt water? I've had three A4s now, 2 from 1972 and one early model (late 60's?). The saltwater one showed really bad effects of raw water cooling. The two that spent their lives on the great lakes look new. I read through all the advice on this forum to go FWC, and I did for one of my boats. I deeply regretted it. It complicated an otherwise good running system. I had constant problems bleeding air out of the system. I ended up blowing a head gasket due to overheating as a result. I sold the whole thing to joedb last fall - then watched his forum posts as he struggled to bleed air.

If you are on freshwater I'd say skip the FWC and keep it simple. Why add so many extra failure points? The engine will probably outlive the time you have left to sail even if you leave it RWC. Plus, a new FWC setup costs about the same as another used engine, so you could just buy a spare to rebuild in your free time and plan on swapping it in when your current one falls prey to the dreaded 'raw water cooling' disease.

I know it's heresy, but it's worth hearing the minority opinion sometimes.:eek:

hanleyclifford 05-11-2016 10:50 PM

Minority Report Acknowleged
 
And the financial logic holds up well.....provided you do not stray far from home, and don't have a water jacket failure 1000 miles from home in a place where rebuilding an engine is difficult and expensive.

ndutton 05-11-2016 11:35 PM

Norfolk, VA isn't fresh water so maybe it's better to either configure the FWC system for favorable elevations, reroute the hoses or identify the air pockets and provide bleed/burp points.

joe_db 05-12-2016 08:20 AM

I am on A4 number 3. The first two both died from salt water corrosion, so I am *very* happy to have FWC and possibly have this engine last longer than I will.
Salt water death can be a miserable slow affair with water gradually eroding the openings for head and manifold bolts and the engine having more and more issues with water intrusion. I am so glad nice corrosion-fighting antifreeze mix is the only thing in my engine now. Winterizing is very easy now and I coolant hot enough to support a cabin heater or water heater. Thanks to the Indigo thermostat I have full flow cooling and quick warm up.
As to the other issues:
An engine used only on a fresh water lake IS fresh water cooled, just not anti-freeze cooled. It would not be the same priority as those of us on salt water.
Electrical vs. mechanical pumps - I am not sure on this one. The electrical pumps are easier to work with for sure, they can go a lot of places and mechanical pumps only fit on the engine. Electrical pumps are cheaper. Electrical pumps can run when the engine is not running. Electrical pumps can be connected in series, so you can have 2 or 3 however many you like.
The downsides are that I do not think one is sufficient and air issues*. Like anything else with wires, the pumps can fail. I have two and would not be comfortable with one. Electrical pumps are NOT self priming. They move a lot of water, but do nothing with air. They are NOT good at purging air from the system.
Mechanical pumps move air and water, so purging air would not be anywhere near the same issue. They obviously need no electricity to function. If you have access to mount one you don't need to mess with wiring, switches, fuses, ballast resistors, etc. I think I might go mechanical if money and space were not problems, but then again I have a backup with the flick of a switch now so maybe not.


* Air issues - I can purge my engine pretty easily NOW, but it was a learning curve and IMHO not all that well covered in the various documentation you get with these systems. I fill the system, leave the cap off the heat exchanger, run the pumps for about 15 minutes, top off, and run 15 more minutes. Next I will start the engine and keep a CLOSE eye on temps with the IR thermometer. If there is any air left, and there will be, the engine will heat up very fast. I will shut the engine off before it overheats and leave the pumps on. This opens the thermostat and allows a lot of trapped air to escape. Top off again and then run the engine some more. If the temps settle down, I'll run for awhile with the cap off to bleed any extra air.

* A note on money - Neither Moyer nor Indigo are making huge profits on their kits. You can do better - I did - FleaBay scrounging, but by the time you get all the pieces and fittings and hose, you will be thinking you didn't save as much as you thought, but then again being sailors saving $1.50 is a good day :D

alcodiesel 05-12-2016 09:15 AM

Thank you for the input. The boat has lived in salt water all it's life and will continue to.
I have a place right next to the A4 below the quarter berth where the electric pumps could go and be at or below the engine.
Where to put the heat exchanger and tank? Maybe in the cockpit lazerette.

Thanks to Flathead: "The engine will probably outlive the time you have left to sail even if you leave it RWC. Plus, a new FWC setup costs about the same as another used engine" hmmmmm, true. However: I plan to never sell this boat and give it to one of my kids when I am done up. More hmmmm.

joe_db 05-12-2016 09:43 AM

My electric pumps are behind the engine and about the level of the top of the transmission housing. They do need to be low or they will get air-locked. My heat exchanger is in the port cockpit locker with the bottom of the exchanger about even with the top of the engine. This has an effect I had not totally thought through - any time you work on the system, a lot of coolant will dump out. If I ever get in the mood to add things, I might install a valve or two to prevent this, but then again I have the system sorted now and should not be messing with it too much.


Quote:

Originally Posted by alcodiesel (Post 99213)
Thank you for the input. The boat has lived in salt water all it's life and will continue to.
I have a place right next to the A4 below the quarter berth where the electric pumps could go and be at or below the engine.
Where to put the heat exchanger and tank? Maybe in the cockpit lazerette.

Thanks to Flathead: "The engine will probably outlive the time you have left to sail even if you leave it RWC. Plus, a new FWC setup costs about the same as another used engine" hmmmmm, true. However: I plan to never sell this boat and give it to one of my kids when I am done up. More hmmmm.


sastanley 05-12-2016 09:43 AM

Bill, the discussion regarding belt or electric FWC sometimes has to do with space. I have no room at the front to add a pulley to run another pump. I have a buddy with the same boat, and his boat has a belt driven antifreeze pump that is bolted in between the alternator and accessory drive. I was thinking about that route until I saw the Indigo system. I had already acquired everything except a pump, so I bought a Johnson CM-30 pump and designed my own system, but I borrowed heavily from thatch's pump/HX configuration. That guy is way more creative than me!

My system has been working pretty well..the biggest thing I think is to get the motor as CLEAN as possible before conversion so you don't get dead bits of Chesapeake Bay critters clogging up the little HX tubes somewhere down the road.

joe_db 05-12-2016 09:47 AM

+ 1 on cleaning.
You need about 4 times the cleaning you think you do ;)

ndutton 05-12-2016 09:56 AM

The thing about the Johnson CM30P-7 pump is it will not pump air, will not self prime. It performs amazingly well for a non-displacement stirring type pump but careful consideration should go into system design so that the inevitable air pockets have a clear uphill path to the header tank allowing the system to self-purge.

alcodiesel 05-12-2016 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ndutton (Post 99219)
The thing about the Johnson CM30P-7 pump is it will not pump air, will not self prime. It performs amazingly well for a non-displacement stirring type pump but careful consideration should go into system design so that the inevitable air pockets have a clear uphill path to the header tank allowing the system to self-purge.

Then installing the exchanger and tank in the lazarette would be good bec. it would be above the engine by a foot or so.

ndutton 05-12-2016 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alcodiesel (Post 99220)
Then installing the exchanger and tank in the lazarette would be good bec. it would be above the engine by a foot or so.

And it's important the hoses to and from are on a continuous uphill run to the HX & tank.

thatch 05-12-2016 03:52 PM

"Note to Shawn"
 
Shawn, Thank's for the compilment in post #18 but sometimes I "create" myself right into the toilet, I ain't perfect.
Tom

joe_db 05-13-2016 07:39 AM

Has anyone ever seen the factory FWC? They used what looks like a quite small heat exchanger that bolted to the manifold.

Easy Rider 05-14-2016 08:11 PM

I picked up a used F/W cooled A4 about 15 years ago that came with what I assume must have been a factory installation H/E or a H/E option that was made just for the A4. I'm not at the boat to check but I believe it was manufactured by "Sen-Dur", but I could be wrong. It was positioned beside the exhaust manifold at about the same height and used the fore and aft manifold studs to secure it to the engine. It does seem quite small, being about the same length of the manifold but it has worked well for me for about the 12 years since I installed it and it keeps the A4 at a comfortable 160 degrees. At least that's what the gauge says. In my situation (Ranger 29) there wasn't enough width in the engine compartment to accommodate the H/E in the bolted on position so I relocated the H/E to the aft bulkhead in the lazarette where it's easier to do routine maintenance to it.

Chuck


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