Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Electrical

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 73.173.165.224
Old 11-09-2017, 10:41 PM
dwkfym dwkfym is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
New alternator, now no power to the engine

I installed a new 65amp alternator, now I have no power to the engine.

The way my wiring is done is as follows: alternator ignition goes to coil pos, then another wire from coil pos goes to ignition switch, then to the ammimeter, then back down to a fuse bus bar pos, then on the bus bar to the battery selector. The other accessories on the bus bar include galley pump, depth finder, and VHF.

I installed an inline fuse from the line that goes to the battery switch to the bus bar. Prior to installing the new alternator, the 30a fuse here kept popping.

The event that lead me to replace the alternator was that my coil kept burining out. My engine bay got flooded and after I replaced the oil 8 times to get the water out, I started her up. Didn't notice that my 12v lighter socket voltimeter was reading 14+a (which it never did before.. always high 12's even when charging) and after 20 minutes, the engine quit. Coil was hot to the touch. This might have had something to do with it -- if my ammimeter was burnt out when this happened, would this kill the circuit?

Thanks in advance. I'm getting really frustrated with the season closing fast. (located in Deale, MD)
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-10-2017, 08:28 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
OK, let's get started.

The description is appreciated but has a few holes that need to be cleared up before we can help and be assured, this can be solved. First, an accurate and detailed drawing would be of immense help. It need not be professionally engineered on a CAD program, a hand drawing is just fine as long as it's accurate. Important details that should be included are exactly which terminal the various wires are connected to on the ignition switch, ammeter, coil, alternator, etc. and their color. What brand of alternator? Exactly what coil is installed, what was its internal resistance? If these questions seem daunting, no problem. Report back with questions of your own and we can walk it through step by step.

There is no need to include anything other than engine related connections to the buss bar at this time.

The forum has pretty good electrical guys so with accurate information from you we can solve this.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 73.173.165.224
Old 11-10-2017, 12:51 PM
dwkfym dwkfym is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks. I'm gonna go by the boat again and trace the wires.

Alternator is an internally resisted Arco 0065. Modified to close out the sensing wire and tested at the shop to make sure it worked.

Coil is a Echlin IC64 (now IC14)
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 174.204.17.185
Old 11-10-2017, 07:26 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,762
Thanks: 12
Thanked 204 Times in 155 Posts
Please do supply a diagram! That setup does not sound right. Also what kind of alternator?
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-10-2017, 08:15 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
I believe dwkfym meant the coil rather than the alternator had internal resistance (both the Echlin IC64 and IC14 are 3Ω coils = good) and the alternator is actually an Arco 60065. Looking forward to the drawing.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 73.173.165.224
Old 11-10-2017, 09:11 PM
dwkfym dwkfym is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You are correct, I made a mistake. Internally regulated alternator, internally resisted coil

I did my best, I hope this is a correct representation

https://imgur.com/a/vkZs8 Link to image
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-10-2017, 10:14 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
Oh yeah, there are problems. Before we go deep we should double check a few things on the drawing for accuracy:
  • The - post on the coil goes to the distributor, NOT an engine ground. Don't be misled by the - sign. If in fact it goes to the ground it explains the overheated coil in spades.
  • Ignition switch wiring (as drawn) is several layers of wrong. Pleased revisit it carefully including terminal labeling (B for battery, I for ignition and S for starter solenoid) on the switch itself. One of the wires, probably heavy gauge red, should go from the large starter post to the B terminal on the ignition switch (not shown on the drawing).
That was a good effort on the drawing and it really helps. Let's double check these few things and we'll really get down to business.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 73.173.165.224
Old 11-11-2017, 04:48 AM
dwkfym dwkfym is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanks. Let me check the coil post tomorrow. Just to be clear, we aren't talking about the ignition cable (looks like a spark plug cable) that goes to the distributor cap, correct? You are talking about the negative post?

Also, my ignition switch is sealed from the back. I see four wires coming out of it each with a label. I think I have it right.. I took some photos of the gauges attached below

Note - loose nuts and such is from me taking them off while working on the wiring.
Attached Images
    
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-11-2017, 08:20 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
Not to worry dwk, we'll get through this even if it's one wire at a time. For starters, let's talk about the coil connections. You are correct, we are not talking about the large "secondary" wire that comes from the big center snoot on the coil but rather the wires that attach to the small posts marked + & -.

The coil takes modest 12V and boosts it up to somewhere between 25,000 and 40,000 volts, enough to cause a tiny lightning bolt across the spark plug gap. The 12V input voltage is delivered through those two small posts on the coil. There may be a number of wires on the + post but for simplicity we'll only talk about the one, hopefully purple if of the proper color, that comes from the I terminal on the ignition switch. That wire provides 12V+ to the coil when the ignition switch is on.

As we know, we need a complete circuit so the coil also gets a 12V- wire connected to the small post marked - but here's the important part: that wire is NOT a solid ground. It is switched on and off by the points under the plastic distributor cap. That's the reason the wire connected to that post comes from the distributor. For this discussion, it's the ONLY wire connected to the - post. (Note: if your instruments include a tachometer there may be a sensing wire to it that's connected to the same - post on the coil so if there are two, confirm one goes to the coil, the other to the tachometer) Any other wires on the coil - post are wrong, wrong, wrong.

You might want to keep the attached wiring diagram handy while we are chasing this down. It may not be exactly how your boat is wired but the basic engine wiring will need to end up as in the drawing.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 172.56.35.219
Old 11-11-2017, 03:44 PM
dwkfym dwkfym is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm at the boat. Negative post on the coil does go to the distributor.
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-11-2017, 07:46 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
Did we determine whether or not you have electronic ignition? Is there one wire (typically black) coming out of the side of the distributor or two (red and black)?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 73.173.165.224
Old 11-12-2017, 01:33 PM
dwkfym dwkfym is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
It has points.

Here is the corrected wiring diagram.
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 98.226.209.168
Old 11-12-2017, 02:25 PM
HOTFLASH HOTFLASH is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chicago
Posts: 193
Thanks: 23
Thanked 16 Times in 13 Posts
Gauge -

Thanks for the diagram. Print is small for my eyes, so I cannot see some of the labels and have not followed each wire. But at first glance I did notice that the G( -) wires from the gauges one to another do not seem to be connected to a (-) ground bus or other wire to ground. Am I missing something?

Mary
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-12-2017, 04:45 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
In addition to the missing ground Mary noticed, I see no 12V+ path from the battery switch common to the ignition switch and I'm having real problems with the ignition switch terminals (Ign, Blo, Ign. Blo) when every ignition switch I've ever seen has Battery, Ignition, Start and maybe Accessory terminals. I see no wire to the starter solenoid, required to actually start the engine and I see no sender wire for the oil pressure gauge.

Until we sort out the ignition switch connections we can't deal with the ammeter and everywhere those wires go. That your engine was running prior to this episode indicates there are still inaccuracies with the drawing because with what is missing, there's no way it could start and run. Sorry to be a pain, just trying to get the best information so we can give the best advice.

In the meantime, carefully examine the wire from the points inside the distributor to the coil - post for damage and a short to ground, especially where it exits the distributor, and check to be certain the points open and close as the distributor shaft rotates.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 107.12.224.51
Old 11-12-2017, 05:11 PM
Marian Claire's Avatar
Marian Claire Marian Claire is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,645
Thanks: 12
Thanked 50 Times in 38 Posts
" I'm having real problems with the ignition switch terminals (Ign, Blo, Ign. Blo)"

I think the Off/Blower/Ign+Blower/Ign switch is like the one that came on the MC. The same one that failed and I eliminated. One thing it does is forces you to pass thru the blower only setting before you can start the engine. Kind of reminds you the run the blower before you start the engine. Then you can have the blower running and start the engine. The last setting allows you to use all battery power to start the engine.
Dan S/V Marian Claire
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 72.194.223.97
Old 11-12-2017, 05:13 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 2,761
Thanks: 27
Thanked 365 Times in 289 Posts
Here's a diagram from my A4 owners manual. It may not be to relevant since previous owners sometimes change stuff around. However it might be useful as a starting point.
Side note to Neil: The diagram does not show a ACC key position but I know there is one. The terminal is on the back of the ignition switch and the key has an ACC position. Interesting.

TRUE GRIT
Attached Images
File Type: pdf A4 WIRING-2.pdf (421.7 KB, 14 views)

Last edited by JOHN COOKSON; 11-13-2017 at 01:03 AM. Reason: misspelling of relevant
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-12-2017, 06:23 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
Because I'm not seeing a separate start button the ign switch must have a momentary start function but neither it nor the solenoid wire is shown.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 50.101.241.60
Old 11-12-2017, 09:05 PM
GregH's Avatar
GregH GregH is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Kingston, ON
Posts: 162
Thanks: 69
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
From the photos are not the purple wires going to the light + on each gauge?
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-12-2017, 10:09 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GregH View Post
From the photos are not the purple wires going to the light + on each gauge?
Looking at the picture and the latest drawing, the purple wires are grounds meaning the ABYC color code is out the window.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #20   IP: 73.173.165.224
Old 11-12-2017, 11:08 PM
dwkfym dwkfym is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Yep. The PO did not use proper colors for everything.

I'm going to check on the insulation on the orange wiring from the coil tomorrow, I will also check on the ground that is missing. I'll re-check everything tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 70.186.210.78
Old 11-13-2017, 07:42 AM
Tim's Avatar
Tim Tim is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 129
Thanks: 18
Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Assuming your drawing is correct, there are two wires missing from the starter solenoid/ignition circuit.

1) According to your drawing, +12V comes from the batteries, thru the selector switch, then to the solenoid, and then to ... nowhere. There should be another wire connecting the large terminal on the solenoid to the starter switch. Without that wire, there will be no +12V to the ignition circuit.

2) There should also be a wire from the igntion switch to the "s" terminal on the solenoid. This is the wire that engages the solenoid when the ignition key is turned.

Both of these wires should be there if the engine was running prior to replacing the alternator. Is it possible that you disconnected or removed some wires while working on the alternator?
__________________
Pearson 10M
Gloucester, Va

Last edited by Tim; 11-13-2017 at 07:53 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #22   IP: 138.207.175.12
Old 11-13-2017, 07:51 AM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is online now
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 1,769
Thanks: 674
Thanked 134 Times in 62 Posts
I feel like Goose, sitting in the back seat of that F-14 in Top Gun and yelling, "Go get 'em, Neil, Tim, et al!"

Multiple bogies in that wiring!

Bill
__________________
Moyer Marine Inc.
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 11-13-2017, 09:45 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,582
Thanks: 97
Thanked 683 Times in 469 Posts
Where are you located?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #24   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 11-13-2017, 10:40 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is offline
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,762
Thanks: 12
Thanked 204 Times in 155 Posts
He is in Deale, MD.
Reply With Quote
  #25   IP: 73.173.165.224
Old 11-13-2017, 01:39 PM
dwkfym dwkfym is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 12
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I totally forgot about the wire that goes from the positive post on my fuse bus (where Gal pump, DF, and radio are powered from) to the common terminal on the selector switch. It's also popping the fuse in-line there.

I'm pulling my hair out. Weather is supposed to be nice this weekend. If I miss this weekend, its time to haul out the boat.

(its funny because I have a shaved head and I actually can't pull my hair out)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Engine Power Loss Norman Downey Reversing Gear 10 05-10-2011 08:22 PM
Key off power draw engine circuit? Joel H. Electrical 14 03-04-2011 09:11 PM
Seized engine turns over!...but.... mbettman Troubleshooting 10 10-28-2010 05:11 AM
Hard Starting after warmup, and intermittent low power in gear jkenan Troubleshooting 7 06-15-2010 08:35 AM
Engine Dies after approx one hour Trysail Troubleshooting 4 08-07-2008 11:15 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2017 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved