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Old 06-13-2017, 10:20 AM
Fishguy Fishguy is offline
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Reviving my "new" Atomic4

Two weeks ago I purchased a 1966 Tartan 27(mine was built by Schock boats in CA) Well, I have had the boat for two weeks now, I live a couple hours away from my marina, so this weekend was my first chance to visit/work on her. I started on the engine(serial#194010 model#5101), it was unmolested from whenever it became inoperable years ago (no one had taken anything apart and it looks like a previous owner had pulled out a seized choke cable, broken it and given up) no oil in the bilge and cranks over easily and smoothly by hand. So I'm taking my chances, started out by scrubbing,scraping chiseling and vacuuming off all the rust and corrosion. Masked it off and painted it, towed it over to the fuel/repair dock and used their fluid vacuum pump to suck out and flush all the oil and fuel. Replaced with fresh oil and topped up the tank with fuel. Pulled all the plugs and added some marvel mystery oil to each cylinder, installed new plugs and wires and two new batteries. The starter appears to be seized, I will be pulling it and the alternator and taking them to a shop hoping for a rebuild, the carb should be rebuilt probably and I will probably replace the distributor cap, rotor and points. The little hand operated priming fuel pump appears seized, so that needs to be addressed. Here's a couple before and after pictures. I'm open for suggestions, I'm not a mechanic....
Well, I have had the boat for two weeks now, I live a couple hours away from my marina, so this weekend was my first chance to visit/work on her. I started on the engine, it was unmolested from whenever it became inoperable years ago(no one had taken anything apart) no oil in the bilge and cranks over easily and smoothly by hand. So I'm taking my chances, started out by scrubbing,scraping chiseling and vacuuming off all the rust and corrosion. Masked it off and painted it, towed it over to the fuel/repair dock and used their fluid vacuum pump to suck out and flush all the oil and fuel. Replaced with fresh oil and topped up the tank with fuel. Pulled all the plugs and added some marvel mystery oil to each cylinder, installed new plugs and wires and two new batteries. The starter appears to be seized, so I will probably just put a new one on, the carb should be rebuilt probably and I will probably replace the distributor cap, rotor and points. The little hand operated priming fuel pump appears seized, so that needs to be addressed. Here's a couple before and after pictures. I'm open for suggestions, I'm not a mechanic....
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Old 06-13-2017, 11:54 AM
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Thumbs up carb & fuel pump

fishguy - welcome!! A checklist we remind folks of around here is the three things these motors need to run...compression, fuel, & spark. I recommend focusing on one at a time, but all three eventually, to get her running. You have taken the first step on compression by adding MMO to the cylinders..keep doing this and turning it over by hand. You can put your thumb over a plug hole while rotating the motor to see if each cylinder has compression..as the piston is coming up with both valves closed, it should try to push your thumb off the plug hole..if it does, you are good there..if it doesn't, you may have a stuck valve..sometimes they will come loose on their own or with added help. Later we can get fancy and do compression tests with gauges and stuff..for now the thumb test is adequate. Next we have fuel, which I've blabbered on about a bit with my opinions, below.

I would pull the carb and clean it. In my experience, when ethanol laced fuel sits around in things like carbs, it turns to a gel and makes a mess...might as well crack it open and blow out all of the little holes and jets...pay special attention to the two tiny holes in the carb throat on either side of the throttle butterfly plate.you can use a bread tie stripped of its paper (or other really small gauge wire) to make sure you get these cleaned out.. one other tip. EYE protection!!! The jets and holes in the carb have weird routes and the carb cleaner often comes back at you from another orifice!

The mechanical fuel pump is a tricky little beast, but I personally prefer it over adding another electrical component involving the electric fuel pump. If the push rod (which is in the side of the block and is moved by the camshaft) is in the extended position, it will hold the diaphragm and not allow you to manually actuate the pump with the external lever. There are rebuild kits available for this too, but I would first turn the motor a bit with the hand crank to change the position of the push rod to allow the diaphragm space to move and see if you can get it to pump fuel...when it is pumping air there will be little resistance, but you'll feel the pressure of the fluid when it gets in the pump. It may take a minute or two of sucking air out of the fuel line to prime the pump. - If you want, you can turn the engine by hand while placing light pressure on the lever...you should feel the push rod moving the diaphragm back and forth while holding the lever.


One step at a time and we'll help you get her running...if your boat did not come with one, add the Moyer Manual to your first order once we've helped you compile a parts list.
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Old 06-13-2017, 01:40 PM
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Thanks! I will be back on it a it this next weekend and will thumb check the compression and fiddle with the fuel pump, will probably pull off the carb along with the starter and alternator. Here's some more pictures, they didn't load with original post? Maybe because I'm a newbee I'm limited to two?
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Old 06-13-2017, 01:41 PM
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Old 06-13-2017, 10:54 PM
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Great start...looks like Rustoleum Hammered Copper..I think that makes 3 engines on the forum that color..

Here's mine.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:02 PM
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Pretty nice! Now all you need to do is buff up those brass fittings. Good work.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:26 PM
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Shawn, At least four.
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Old 06-14-2017, 07:51 PM
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Make it 5, mine is too!
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Old 06-19-2017, 11:30 PM
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helping a Tartan 27 owner with an A4

A member of my Tartan 27' owners group is a recent owner and is struggling with a new/old engine. I am sure I linked this forum to him to ask his questions about the Atomic 4 but sometimes the best advice is ignored. In any case, I supply the meat of his last A4 query to this brain trust.



Ok, I spent some time on the boat this weekend, but not as much with the engine, had my wife and daughter with me and we stripped all the old varnish off the coaming boards in the cockpit and went fishing on Sunday.

I did check the compression with my thumb and by cranking over by hand, pretty much got nothing... #2 initially had a little push to it, the other three, not much of anything. I'm not sure if I need to check it while using the starter? With the hand crank I tried each cylinder approx 2-3 revolutions at about 1/3 - 1/2 revolution at a time... I am discouraged and didn't have much time, so I did not pull the starter or anything else off. I did add some more marvel myster oil to each cylinder. On that note, I have only added the MMO directly to the cylinders, approx 1-2 ounces to each cylinder, twice now, and both times I ended up with quite a bit of MMO leaking out of the carb area?? Is that normal? Or maybe indicative of bigger problems? I also checked the manual fuel pump out, it only seems to move a small amount (1/4- 1/2") with considerable resistance and moves no fuel. The stainless trap is completely empty and clean. I found a Moyer receipt from 3 years ago for the bowl and pump arm only. Talking to the PO, he stated that to his knowledge, the guy that owned it and let things go before he bought the boat back had been coming back from the fuel dock and the engine died, thinks that the fuel valve is closed and that is what I have found. There is a needle valve between a metal fuel line and the rubber fuel line that appears stuck closed. So maybe the pump is vapor locked?

I'm not sure how to proceed? Should I pull the starter anyway? I tried again to jump the connections on the solenoid and got no movement , only sparks. Don't know what my thumb compression findings mean, and don't really want to spend the $ on getting the starter rebuilt if the engine has b igger issues... I was thinking I could pull the rubber hose off the valve and see if the fuel pump will move better or is that all it is supposed to move anyway? I can take down some gas cans to remove the fuel and change that needle valve is my plan for that.

Thanks again to everyone!


Sounds to me like he may have a stuck valve or two or is it not unusual for MMO to make its way back down to the carb through one cylinder or the other?
Any takers? I'll send him the link to this thread.
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Old 06-20-2017, 09:23 AM
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I'll contribute this...

Doing the "Thumb" compression test by hand cranking won't work.
He needs to use the starter.

Here's a quote from Don,
"For the purpose of diagnosing a major power loss, a simple check using your thumb over each spark plug hole is more than adequate. If your compression is sufficient so as to make it impossible for you to hold your thumb over each spark plug hole while cranking the engine with the starter, the cause of your power loss is not a major mechanical failure."

Also sounds like he has fuel delivery issues.
I'd suggest starting with a known clean fuel source (temporary tank)
The "mechanical fuel pump crew" will have to comment more on his pump.
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Old 06-20-2017, 10:15 AM
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My order of attack would be:
1 - Get the starter working, to check for compression and to ensure the electrical system is functional
2 - Address the compression/valve issues - a cheap compression gauge from Harbor Freight would be more than adequate; the Marvel leakback is unremarkable in an engine that hasn't been run. Guessing the valves are a little stuck and tapping them down with an Allen wrench through the spark plug holes will get them moving again, possibly also with the inclusion of some MMO in the fuel for added lubrication once the engine is started again
3 - Address the fuel problems by getting the engine running from a gravity-fed container of clean fuel and then working backwards through the system to the fuel tank

I would add electronic ignition without a second thought, but not until the engine is running somehow.
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Old 06-20-2017, 11:35 AM
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starter

+1 on Tenders' work flow. I would add charging the batteries.

Don't be shy about pulling off the starter - its a 15 minute job.

Once off, open it up and have a look: there may be an obvious problem. Might just need to be lubed and unfrozen.

Several years ago, up the coast the starter made terrible sounds when we tried to fire her up and head into an unfamiliar harbour. I spent the next hour up to my elbows in grease while my wife learned how to sail the boat in increasing waves and wind. Although I had never looked inside a starter in my life, it was obvious that the king pin had broken into several pieces that were jammed up in the gears. Pretty easy to dig out the bits and reassemble as I had lots of spare cotter pins. It was a great day.

I think that getting your head around troubleshooting and giving yourself permission to fumble around in strange parts of the engine is a big part of the fun of owning an A4. No black boxes!

BTW I now carry a bottle of Fast Orange Smooth hand cleaner (made by Permatex).
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Old 06-20-2017, 05:46 PM
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Back To Basics

What appears to be multiple problems can seem overwhelming at times.*
For the engine to start and run you will need compression, fuel and spark delivered to the cylinders, and properly adjusted choke and timing.
Since adequate compression has not yet been demonstrated yet I might suggest that compression be the first priority. Then address other problems.

TRUE GRIT

* Actually I like it better this way than "my something is not working, why?" Then it goes round and round only go find out in the end the "something" was not the problem after all!
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Old 06-20-2017, 07:53 PM
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Thanks for your initial ideas.

I have emailed the owner with a link to this thread so hopefully he shows up.
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Old 06-20-2017, 09:58 PM
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Caleb, Let's see how things go...The pump may seem vapor locked, but should pull fuel by hand unless the diaphragm has failed...in which case it might still pull fuel and dump it in the crankcase. That is a simple rebuild kit or electric pump replacement. We'll get there when we get there..

+2 on tenders checklist, but I would do it in the order of compression, spark and then fuel..no sense in filling the manifold and cylinders with fuel until we have compression and no sense in filling the cabin with fumes until we have spark...the fuel delivery is all external and easy to fix with the suggestions provided.

Quote:
There is a needle valve between a metal fuel line and the rubber fuel line that appears stuck closed.
Not sure about the "needle valve" he is referring to.
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Old 06-21-2017, 05:33 PM
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input from mechanical fuel pump crew.

If you put 1 or 2 ounces of MMO into each cylinder, it will definitely emerge into the carburetor, and you will have to take the carb off, disassemble it and clean out the oil. The reason it goes into the carb is the cylinders are not directly below the spark plugs, but off toward the alternator side of the engine. If you just put MMO straight down from the spark plug holes, most of it will go into the valves, and down into the carb. This has happened to me, and now I use some sort of tubing or large drinking straw to direct the MMO directly to the cylinders. One of those archaic, long-spouted oil cans would work for that. I do this for winterization, and before starting up in the spring. MMO in the fuel keeps valves from sticking.
The hand bail on the mechanical pump will often have a small range of motion, depending on where the engine is in its rotation. It should still pump fuel, however, unless there is a fuel valve closed upstream of the pump. Once you know that fuel valve is open, you should be able to fill the stainless bowl just before the pump with the hand bail. If the stainless bowl is empty, the valve in the fuel line is definitely closed, unless the engine hasn't been run since the bowl was attached. When you are able to hand operate the pump until gas flows all the way to the float valve in the carburetor and pressurizes the fuel line , the pump bail will go limp with no resistance. The range of motion of the bail decreases as you pressurize the fuel system.You can hear gas flow through the filters, the pump, and into the carb as you pump the bail, until everything is full of gas. In my experience there is no vapor lock with a mechanical fuel pump. It will pump air, and inhale (here I avoid the four letter word that begins with s and ends with k) the gas through the fuel lines and filters, fill the pump bowl, and push the gas up against the float valve. This will make the needle in your fuel pressure gauge, if you have one, move off its peg and read about 3. If the gauge doesn't hold pressure you have a leak and need to look for it, or your float valve does not seal well and gas will come out the bottom of the carb into the air intake. If your pump diaphragm is broken, gas will go into the crankcase, and your fuel lines will not pressurize. This has never happened to me in 2600 hours of operation. I believe using MMO in the fuel keeps the diaphragm from drying out, and using non-ethanol gas keeps the rubber from degrading. Once there is fuel pressure, the engine should start right up with little cranking, if compression, spark, choke, and timing are in proper order.
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Old 06-21-2017, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnward View Post
If you put 1 or 2 ounces of MMO into each cylinder, it will definitely emerge into the carburetor, and you will have to take the carb off, disassemble it and clean out the oil. The reason it goes into the carb is the cylinders are not directly below the spark plugs, but off toward the alternator side of the engine. If you just put MMO straight down from the spark plug holes, most of it will go into the valves, and down into the carb. This has happened to me, and now I use some sort of tubing or large drinking straw to direct the MMO directly to the cylinders. One of those archaic, long-spouted oil cans would work for that. I do this for winterization, and before starting up in the spring. MMO in the fuel keeps valves from sticking.
The hand bail on the mechanical pump will often have a small range of motion, depending on where the engine is in its rotation. It should still pump fuel, however, unless there is a fuel valve closed upstream of the pump. Once you know that fuel valve is open, you should be able to fill the stainless bowl just before the pump with the hand bail. If the stainless bowl is empty, the valve in the fuel line is definitely closed, unless the engine hasn't been run since the bowl was attached. When you are able to hand operate the pump until gas flows all the way to the float valve in the carburetor and pressurizes the fuel line , the pump bail will go limp with no resistance. The range of motion of the bail decreases as you pressurize the fuel system.You can hear gas flow through the filters, the pump, and into the carb as you pump the bail, until everything is full of gas. In my experience there is no vapor lock with a mechanical fuel pump. It will pump air, and inhale (here I avoid the four letter word that begins with s and ends with k) the gas through the fuel lines and filters, fill the pump bowl, and push the gas up against the float valve. This will make the needle in your fuel pressure gauge, if you have one, move off its peg and read about 3. If the gauge doesn't hold pressure you have a leak and need to look for it, or your float valve does not seal well and gas will come out the bottom of the carb into the air intake. If your pump diaphragm is broken, gas will go into the crankcase, and your fuel lines will not pressurize. This has never happened to me in 2600 hours of operation. I believe using MMO in the fuel keeps the diaphragm from drying out, and using non-ethanol gas keeps the rubber from degrading. Once there is fuel pressure, the engine should start right up with little cranking, if compression, spark, choke, and timing are in proper order.
Capt I put plenty of MMO in the cylinders and it goes wherever it goes. If any MMO gets to the carb there will be no problem. It would only be in the throat and not the bowl or jets.

I pour MMO into the spark arrester also. Some does drip out but there is no carb clogging. I think it is beneficial to the carb if anything.
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Old 06-23-2017, 09:53 AM
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So many rescuers...and no victim to be found
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Old 06-23-2017, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnward View Post
One of those archaic, long-spouted oil cans would work for that. I do this for winterization, and before starting up in the spring. MMO in the fuel keeps valves from sticking.
I finally found one of these after a long search in all the Auto Boutique stores..Metal can, metal flexible tube and a threaded CAP! It sill leaks though, so it has to be in a Tupperware container to contain the MMO that seeps down the sides of the can.

Great explanation on the mech fuel pump too..I didn't feel like typing that much. I love my mechanical fuel pump.
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Old 06-23-2017, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
I finally found one of these after a long search in all the Auto Boutique stores..Metal can, metal flexible tube and a threaded CAP! It sill leaks though, so it has to be in a Tupperware container to contain the MMO that seeps down the sides of the can.
I have a pump oil can with a flexible spout. Works great for this sort of use.

TRUE GRIT
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:01 PM
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Another idea is to re-use those 3-in-One plastic teardrop shaped dispensers with the extendable spout..not an old school metal pump can, but it works pretty good too...and with the clear tubing, you can see the oil on its way down the tube.
http://a.co/hBjBGRW

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Old 06-23-2017, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Capt I put plenty of MMO in the cylinders and it goes wherever it goes. If any MMO gets to the carb there will be no problem. It would only be in the throat and not the bowl or jets.

I pour MMO into the spark arrester also. Some does drip out but there is no carb clogging. I think it is beneficial to the carb if anything.
Romantic,
Thanks for correctly pointing out that the MMO wouldn't get into the bowl or jets. After putting plenty of MMO down the spark plug holes, the engine wouldn't start. I then noticed MMO dripping from the choke shaft in the air intake. I removed and cleaned the carb of oil and the engine started. Thus my assumption that too much MMO in the throat of the carb inhibits starting. I may be wrong.
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Old 06-23-2017, 12:30 PM
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Old 06-23-2017, 08:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tenders View Post
So many rescuers...and no victim to be found
Yeah, I apologize for stirring the pot. I had hoped the fella that is having the problems would have found his way over to this great resource once I provided the link to this discussion. Guess I'll have to keep sending him the link.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming.
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Old 06-27-2017, 01:25 AM
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I'm here now, thanks for all the input, I had started another post on here, http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=10203 , but this one is getting more attention. Thank you Caleb and everyone! I am looking to get this thing running! Thanks for the insight about the MMO getting into the carb. I'm glad that was to be expected. I do have a portable gas tank that I can rig up to feed the engine. So here is where I am now.

So, I bought a rebuilt starter from a local engine shop for $180, they will give me $30 for the old one but, I'm thinking I might get it rebuilt and keep as a spare? I need to look at a wiring diagram, I could only get it to work by jumping the battery directly to the solenoid temporarily... Tested the old starter, it was definitely not working... Had bought a compression tester at harbor freight, compression reads 60 at each except #1 which was 30, though maybe I had worn down the battery by then... Checked for spark off a plug got nothing, checked off the coil and got nothing... All that has been done so far in regards to ignition is 2 new batteries, new plugs and wires...

I'm thinking that compression is low? Is it still salvageable? I did add a bit more marvel mystery oil to each cylinder...

Thoughts and direction appreciated



Thanks,

Tim

Last edited by Fishguy; 06-27-2017 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:02 AM
Fishguy Fishguy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenders View Post
My order of attack would be:

2 - Address the compression/valve issues - a cheap compression gauge from Harbor Freight would be more than adequate; the Marvel leakback is unremarkable in an engine that hasn't been run. Guessing the valves are a little stuck and tapping them down with an Allen wrench through the spark plug holes will get them moving again, possibly also with the inclusion of some MMO in the fuel for added lubrication once the engine is started again
So, if I'm reading this correctly, there are bolts on the valves that I can access through the spark plug holes and I should loosen and tighten them? Also I will find something that I can direct the MMO over to them as suggested by others.

Or am I screwed with 60-60-60-30 compression?
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