Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Electrical

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-03-2017, 12:44 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,605
Thanks: 97
Thanked 695 Times in 476 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Well to be fair, this is an Ebay sale of something that would have cost around $500 or so new (whether is/was worth that is another story)
Oh goody, now we're up to $800 ~ $1000, alt and the typical recommended multi-stage regulator combined.

Look, the combination of an ebay find and having a preferred external regulator on hand makes sense but if left to normal circumstances . . . well, y'know.

Kinda makes MMI's 120A alternator a bargain @ $327 admittedly without the multi-stage charging profile.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 08-03-2017 at 12:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #27   IP: 137.200.32.22
Old 08-03-2017, 12:54 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
With a fixed 14.8 volt internal regulator, I would be spending about $600/month on replacement batteries with that thing
Reply With Quote
  #28   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-03-2017, 01:02 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,605
Thanks: 97
Thanked 695 Times in 476 Posts
I have something similar to the MMI product and because of electronic ignition considerations had the internal reg replaced to a tamer voltage. Cost a little over $50, parts and labor.

I've enjoyed the discussion, fishing around for any possible reason to change from my very simple system to something more highfalutin but weighing my satisfaction with current battery performance and battery life I guess I'm just not there.

This has nothing to do with your very good ebay find, just exploring what I would have to invest if somehow persuaded to head in that direction.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #29   IP: 207.6.154.240
Old 08-03-2017, 08:29 PM
Van_Isle Van_Isle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 98
Thanks: 2
Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
If you keep your eyes open ... regulators do pop up ... like the Balmar MC-614H I picked up for $155.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ad.php?t=10285

(it turned out to be $155, with a partial refund due to a missing fused pigtail for the battery voltage sense cable).

Still working on options for the temperature sensors for alternator and battery.
Reply With Quote
  #30   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 08-04-2017, 07:24 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
The frustrating thing is the temp sensors are $1.00 parts welded/stuck/glued into a battery lug. We just have to find out which $1 part
I replaced my old battery charger with a Pronautic that came with a temperature sensor. It really helps in the winter, summer charge voltages are too low for a 30 degree day.
Reply With Quote
  #31   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-04-2017, 09:32 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,605
Thanks: 97
Thanked 695 Times in 476 Posts
It dawned on me in the middle of the night, normal price $500 for a 65A alternator? Sheesh
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #32   IP: 137.200.0.109
Old 08-04-2017, 11:07 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
It dawned on me in the middle of the night, normal price $500 for a 65A alternator? Sheesh
Yup
This is *really* a case of YMMV. Heavy duty alternators in theory are vastly superior to auto alternators at the same output that will frequently die a quick death if actually asked to put out anywhere near full output for very long. Also all Balmars are approved for marine use.
In practice it has not been universally true of every one of their models that they hold up at full blast and they are not the only people making heavy duty alternators either. I haven't been in the business for a while, so I can't tell you which ones are the best right now with the exception of Electrodyne, who make a great 300 amp or so 24 volt alternator that drives straight off the crank - no belt involved.
EDIT - My particular Balmar is based on a Prestolite alternator, which my local alternator shop guy told me is much better built than the typical 10si knockoff FWIW.

Last edited by joe_db; 08-04-2017 at 12:29 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #33   IP: 207.6.154.240
Old 08-04-2017, 04:36 PM
Van_Isle Van_Isle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 98
Thanks: 2
Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
The frustrating thing is the temp sensors are $1.00 parts welded/stuck/glued into a battery lug. We just have to find out which $1 part
I replaced my old battery charger with a Pronautic that came with a temperature sensor. It really helps in the winter, summer charge voltages are too low for a 30 degree day.
Ah but we do have a report of what is inside. It's supposed to be a LM235 ... might be LM235H or LM235AH or something similar (I haven't quite sorted it out yet). It's an analog temperature sensor, linear response from -40 to 125 degrees C, in a small metal can (a TO-92(3)), 4.3mm in diameter, with 3 pins. One pin is a 'calibrate', that gets trimmed off and the others are B+ and B- (return), in mV.

So the end of the can is glued / potted into a battery lug, and then shrink wrapped.

Canadian digikey website sells these at about $19 (CAD) each ... so I don't think the "$1 parts" is quite correct.

Info comes from here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...or-184885.html and digikey's website and my email conversations with the creator of that thread.

I should note however, that I did not get an answer as to exactly how that particular model of sensor was determined.
Reply With Quote
  #34   IP: 207.6.154.240
Old 08-04-2017, 04:41 PM
Van_Isle Van_Isle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 98
Thanks: 2
Thanked 9 Times in 8 Posts
I also just bought a Pronautic ... a 1230. Stirling makes an identical one also, but I paid a few $ more for the Pronautic since Stirling seems to be almost non-existent here in Canada. Anyway they also seem to be one of the lower-priced chargers available that you can set with a custom charging profile, instead of just pre-sets.
Reply With Quote
  #35   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 08-04-2017, 05:15 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
Hmmm
Always a Chinese knockoff to be found
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1PCS-LM235Z-...38.m2548.l4275


Quote:
Originally Posted by Van_Isle View Post
Ah but we do have a report of what is inside. It's supposed to be a ... might be LM235H or LM235AH or something similar (I haven't quite sorted it out yet). It's an analog temperature sensor, linear response from -40 to 125 degrees C, in a small metal can (a TO-92(3)), 4.3mm in diameter, with 3 pins. One pin is a 'calibrate', that gets trimmed off and the others are B+ and B- (return), in mV.

So the end of the can is glued / potted into a battery lug, and then shrink wrapped.

Canadian digikey website sells these at about $19 (CAD) each ... so I don't think the "$1 parts" is quite correct.

Info comes from here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...or-184885.html and digikey's website and my email conversations with the creator of that thread.

I should note however, that I did not get an answer as to exactly how that particular model of sensor was determined.
Reply With Quote
  #36   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 08-04-2017, 05:15 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
My 1215 works very well
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van_Isle View Post
I also just bought a Pronautic ... a 1230. Stirling makes an identical one also, but I paid a few $ more for the Pronautic since Stirling seems to be almost non-existent here in Canada. Anyway they also seem to be one of the lower-priced chargers available that you can set with a custom charging profile, instead of just pre-sets.
Reply With Quote
  #37   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-04-2017, 08:50 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,605
Thanks: 97
Thanked 695 Times in 476 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Yup
This is *really* a case of YMMV. Heavy duty alternators in theory are vastly superior to auto alternators at the same output that will frequently die a quick death if actually asked to put out anywhere near full output for very long.
This is exactly why I've advocated for large capacity alternators. My 10Si was sold as a 100A but at our RPM range I never expected more than maybe 60% + out of it. That leaves a 40% margin beneath max output and it should be able to deliver that easily.

Compare what the same load would do to our stock Motorola 35A or an aftermarket 65A.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #38   IP: 174.192.3.94
Old 08-05-2017, 07:51 AM
tac tac is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Harpswell, Maine
Posts: 153
Thanks: 8
Thanked 39 Times in 31 Posts
As implied in post 33, the Balmar temp sensors are thermistors,

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermistor

The below link is apparently to an older manual for the Balmar temp sensors. Note the misspelling of "thermistor". The accompanying table should help in identifying the sensor, and in calibration.

https://www.sailorssolutions.com/Bod...nsorManual.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #39   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 08-05-2017, 02:57 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van_Isle View Post
That's one of the Harbor Freight models? How do you find the die-sizes?
Just did a test today. Instead of releasing the 4 gauge before full crimp, I tried a 2 gauge and it did a perfect octagonal crimp on the 4 gauge lug. I guess this means the 1 gauge does 2 gauge
Reply With Quote
  #40   IP: 137.200.32.6
Old 08-07-2017, 11:18 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
Balmar regulator:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/BALMAR-BRS-I...ZZhdH0&vxp=mtr

$49.95 buy it now
Reply With Quote
  #41   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 08-07-2017, 08:07 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 7,605
Thanks: 97
Thanked 695 Times in 476 Posts
OK, fifty bucks used but being a single stage reg it doesn't provide the multi-stage charging profile the internet 'experts' are pushing so hard, at least without manual manipulation of the voltage setting.

[over the top example warning]
It's reminiscent of the old ACR argument. The same 'experts' advocate for automatic combining relays because, as I interpret it, we lowly boat owners aren't able to manage it ourselves via manual switches. If we can't manage a battery switch how are we expected to manually manage 3 stage charging?
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #42   IP: 137.200.32.38
Old 08-08-2017, 10:31 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
Separated at birth?
$$$ Balmar

Or the $50 or so Transpo


I entertain myself finding out the source of "marine" parts

Last edited by joe_db; 08-08-2017 at 10:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #43   IP: 208.104.48.93
Old 08-08-2017, 03:22 PM
Hawkeye54 Hawkeye54 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 11
Thanks: 1
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
Balmer Alternator installation and test

Joe, the only difference I can see on the Balmer device is a lug adjacent to the amber
LED

Rick
Reply With Quote
  #44   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 08-08-2017, 04:14 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
I think they add a stator-out to drive the tach.
Reply With Quote
  #45   IP: 70.186.210.78
Old 08-08-2017, 04:42 PM
Tim's Avatar
Tim Tim is online now
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Gloucester, VA
Posts: 129
Thanks: 19
Thanked 32 Times in 23 Posts
Here is the Transpo V1300. It appears identical to the Balmar.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Pearson 10M
Gloucester, Va
Reply With Quote
  #46   IP: 137.103.82.194
Old 10-11-2017, 01:21 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 2,783
Thanks: 17
Thanked 207 Times in 158 Posts
Update - the Balmar continues to work very well. It beats the heck out of the stock Motorola and seems to be at least equal to the 10si I had at A4 RPM ranges.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Test pressures ndutton Cooling System 8 08-25-2013 09:05 PM
Coil troubleshooting with a test light? JonnyQuest Ignition System 2 05-04-2013 09:33 AM
Vacuum Guage Test Results Rick_Powers Fuel System 32 06-18-2012 09:07 PM
compression test while partially disassembled boater tom General Interest 0 11-09-2008 11:29 AM
Compression test baileyem General Maintenance 2 06-18-2007 03:16 PM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2017 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved