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  #1   IP: 148.170.241.1
Old 01-05-2011, 01:09 PM
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ILikeRust ILikeRust is offline
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Hoisting the engine

In just a couple days, the boat will be hauled and blocked for some pre-Spring maintenance, repairs and mods. While it's on the hard, I'm going to pull the A4 out and take it home so I can work on it on a bench. I'm going to do an overhaul, but haven't yet completely decided how far I'll go. I'm thinking I'll probably end up going pretty far, actually.

Anyhow, I've seen the pics and read the tips about using the boom to lift it out and swing it down to the ground, but for some reason that makes me feel a bit hinky. The guy at the boatyard, of course, cautioned against it - he's had a couple people drop their engines in the cockpit when trying these clever tricks. He's got a yard crane and will gladly assist me in hoisting the engine out - and I was surprised at how expensive it would be, particularly in light of how reasonable I thought his other fees (hauling, pressure-washing, blocking, etc.) were.

So - is it really no big deal to haul the engine with the boom? Am I being too much of a worry-wart? I know the engine weighs about 350 lbs., so it's not a huge amount - but does using the boom to hoist it place unusual strains on the boom, mast, shrouds, etc.? I can just see a shroud going "POING!" and the mast starting to come down right as I'm swinging it over the side and trying to lower it into my truck bed. But I'm also interested in not having spend a couple hundred bucks for the yard crane service if I don't have to.
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  #2   IP: 71.168.64.77
Old 01-05-2011, 02:03 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is online now
 
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You should peruse the recent thread entitled "rebuild step 1" in which
a forum member uses the main halyard as primary lift and the main sheet
as a guide.

Regards

Art
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  #3   IP: 69.95.136.2
Old 01-05-2011, 02:49 PM
Laker Laker is offline
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Just think of the load that your rig experinces when you are reaching in 20 kts , a wave gets under the stern , you round up - at which time the apparent wind suddenly increases by at least 50% and - BAM - you get knocked down , then the righting moment lifts the mast from near horizontal. I think that a well planned , relatively static load of 350# should be easy on the rig by comparison. It probably would not be a bad idea to rig a back up , or preventor , to the main halyard just for peace of mind. Spin halyard ,maybe?

Also , you could take off some heavy components first , like the alternator and starter.
Your call , Laker.
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  #4   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 01-05-2011, 02:52 PM
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Thumbs up

+1 on what Art said.

Bill, a lot of it depends on how you rig it. There are some people that have no idea about the loads imparted on a sailboat (or any other mechanical device for that matter)..I sometimes wonder how they get thru a normal day without major injury to themselves or others!



It is possible your yard buddy's other experiences have been with folks like that, and have never thought about things like hanging a 310 lbs. engine from the middle of a boom, etc. - that is the first hurdle...if you think it might be OK to hang #300 from the middle of a round tube and expect it not to buckle, you might be one of those people that should pay the crane fee. If you understand that it won't work, you can use your skills and the experience of others to rig something that is safe and strong. (edit - to expound on Laker's comment..he's exactly right..be moving the loads to the correct spots of the rig, it will easily handle them. The boom in compression is extremely strong and handles 1000's of pounds of load from the mainsail..but it may not handle 300 lbs. of unsupported weight hanging from the middle swung out over the boat.) I try to take this approach with lots of boat stuff. There are more than 6000 Catalina 30's like mine...I do not need to re-invent the wheel with most of my projects..someone else has likely already done it. (successfully & unsuccessfully. With such quantity, I get the advantage of learning from both!)

Some people have catastrophic failures go on around them all the time and end up paying someone to fix their problems. Others do a little (or a lot) of research and do something like hauling their engine from their boat successfully while the 'gear buster guy' stands in the boat yard and says, "I had to pay Joe Yardguy $100/hour to run his crane for me after I dropped my engine thru the cockpit" - you are already 1 step ahead by asking the questions before you start!

- Ok, rant over! Let's start engineering an engine hoist!
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4
Well, it's spring again, finally. ...I know this is an engine forum, but I am busy with non-motor projects..which is kind of a relief!

Last edited by sastanley; 01-05-2011 at 03:02 PM. Reason: comment on laker's post
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  #5   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 01-05-2011, 06:20 PM
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Bill,

Before committing to lifting the engine yourself, you might want to shop around for local light crane services like the guys that lift air conditioning equipment onto roofs or maybe sign contractors.

I sometimes use a crane service in my business and feel their minimum is quite reasonable at $200, been using them for 30 years. At least you'll have a price to compare with the yard.
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but the pic below is of my previous boat, a Westsail 32
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  #6   IP: 74.110.198.83
Old 01-05-2011, 06:48 PM
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I am so totally not committed to hoisting it myself. In fact, I am leaning towards having them do it, just to keep it simple. Not only have they done it a couple hundred times, but then the liability is on them if they drop it.

They charge a $200 flat fee for the crane, plus $75/hr labor for the operator, so hoisting it out would probably be about $250, and the same again for putting it back in. I figure for $500 round trip, to get it done quickly, professionally, and most importantly - safely - balanced against my time, effort and angst, probably is worth it, it the grand scheme of things.
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  #7   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 01-05-2011, 06:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
I figure for $500 round trip, to get it done quickly, professionally, and most importantly - safely - balanced against my time, effort and angst, probably is worth it, it the grand scheme of things.
Bill,

I soooo agree with your reasoning. Sometimes just because we can do something doesn't mean it's always the best approach. Park your truck next to the boat, plop the engine right in there in a single operation.

I'd still shop around to keep them honest.
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the same year Elvis died

but the pic below is of my previous boat, a Westsail 32
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  #8   IP: 74.110.198.83
Old 01-05-2011, 07:08 PM
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Can't really shop around, because the boat yard does not allow use of outside contractors to work on your boat. You can do all the work you want on your own boat, or pay them to do some work on it, but you can't bring some other contractor in to work on your boat in their yard. Can't say as I blame them for that, really, given that they are a full-service ABYC certified yard. I don't think there's anything they can't do for you.
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  #9   IP: 138.88.75.40
Old 01-05-2011, 07:57 PM
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Lightbulb

Bill, that cost seems reasonable to me too. I expected it to be more based on your earlier post. Keep in mind that you should do all the grunt work ahead of time so that when the clock is ticking at $75/hour they are not waiting around on you.

First thoughts related to that are, motor mounts free, coupler free, wiring free, etc..sometimes it is the obvious stuff that sucks time on the dollar. other thoughts are, 'the motor is 36" wide with all accessories attached, and the companionway is only 30", if I remove the starter, alternator, fragile carb & fuel pump, the motor is only 28" wide...(those are hypothetical numbers for discussion here typing in the garage, they are NOT accurate or tested..you know, things like, I never thought this piano would have trouble fitting thru the door. )' - etc.etc.etc.. plan it out and haul it out!

go with what works for you, but don't be afraid to call on experience!
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4
Well, it's spring again, finally. ...I know this is an engine forum, but I am busy with non-motor projects..which is kind of a relief!

Last edited by sastanley; 01-05-2011 at 08:02 PM.
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  #10   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 01-05-2011, 08:39 PM
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Understand Bill, if I ran a yard I'd probably have the same policy.

At times (all too often, I'm afraid) I'm a real PITA to deal with and accordingly I'd ask in advance if the $200 flat fee includes setting up the crane (moving to the lift site, rigging the outriggers, that sort of stuff - BTW, I think it should) or are you paying hourly for the setup as well as the actual lift operation. The difference could translate into more and more $$. Best you know in advance.

For comparison, a few years ago I had a yard lift my mast for a full refurb project. I only used the yard for the lift, I had the mast trucked to my house for the work. Their fee was $150 each way, bottom line. Seemed reasonable to me.
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Kalina - 77 Catalina 30 #600

the same year Elvis died

but the pic below is of my previous boat, a Westsail 32
powered with a Perkins 4-107
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  #11   IP: 24.196.42.112
Old 01-06-2011, 05:57 AM
Laker Laker is offline
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And furthermore ...

Bill , Sastanley's cautions are well stated. Keep this in mind : it seems that in many boats the interior was built around the engine after the engine was dropped into place. Then the deck was placed onto the hull. Getting the mill out can be REAL tricky. (recent experience here.) Like he said , plan ahead to avoid having the meter run while you are scratching your head.

GOOD LUCK.

Laker
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  #12   IP: 142.68.252.135
Old 01-06-2011, 06:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ILikeRust View Post
I am so totally not committed to hoisting it myself. In fact, I am leaning towards having them do it, just to keep it simple. Not only have they done it a couple hundred times, but then the liability is on them if they drop it. They charge a $200 flat fee for the crane, plus $75/hr labor for the operator, so hoisting it out would probably be about $250, and the same again for putting it back in. I figure for $500 round trip, to get it done quickly, professionally, and most importantly - safely - balanced against my time, effort and angst, probably is worth it, it the grand scheme of things.
Very sensible. There are some very clever, thoughtful DIY homebuilt solutions for hauling/installing a boat engine, but a light crane handled by a boat yard specialist is by far the simplest, safest and fastest solution for this particular job. Given the overall costs of an engine overhaul/refit, $500 is not outrageous for the peace of mind. I'd rather spend time and mental energy planning the bench refit than days planning the engine removal, along with the cost of buying lumber and a block and tackle I might never use again to build a rickety lift that might work OK or strain a ligament or three.
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  #13   IP: 74.110.198.83
Old 01-06-2011, 08:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker View Post
Keep this in mind : it seems that in many boats the interior was built around the engine after the engine was dropped into place. Then the deck was placed onto the hull. Getting the mill out can be REAL tricky. (recent experience here.) Like he said , plan ahead to avoid having the meter run while you are scratching your head.
Oh yeah, I've already had a pretty good look-see at the sitcheeayshun.

The bulkhead just forward of the engine is removable with just a few screws. I plan on building a new one anyhow - the old one is kinda beat up and is just plywood with 1960's plastic wood-grain laminate veneer on it anyhow - it looks pretty dated and worn. The lid/cover that goes on top of the engine box similarly is beat up and plywood with plastic laminate, like a piece of old diner countertop - including the chips and missing bits of laminate. I am going to build a new bulkhead frame-and-panel style to give the boat a bit more of that classy old wooden boat look and feel, and a new lid out of black walnut for more classy old wooden boat look.

Anyhow, with that bulkhead and lid out of the way, there should be plenty of room to get the beast out. I have yet to lay a tape measure across the companionway, but just eyeballemetrically, it looks like it should go out there without too much trouble.

I also know that this engine was installed in 1983 - the boat was built in 1968. So somebody already pulled out an old engine and put this one in - so it's definitely doable.

I plan on doing all the disconnecting and unhooking well in advance of calling the guy over to hoist the engine out. If they do in fact haul the boat out today, which was the last status I heard, then I might run out there this weekend and do all that. Then the engine will just be sitting in there loose and I can get it lifted out next weekend.
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  #14   IP: 71.168.64.77
Old 01-06-2011, 11:43 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is online now
 
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You might want to consider taping some cardboard over any unprotected
areas to avoid gouges when removing engine.

Regards

Art
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  #15   IP: 174.94.17.146
Old 01-07-2011, 09:30 PM
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When I have to remove my engine I will dismantle as much of it as I can in the vessal before hoisting it out with the appropriate crane;

...and I won't be using the lifting eye!

Straps underneath are the only way to go IMO.
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  #16   IP: 138.88.75.40
Old 01-07-2011, 09:57 PM
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Exclamation

67, I agree there...the weight listed for an A-4 like mine is 310 lbs...I'd pull the starter, water pump, carb, fuel pump, maybe even manifold..that should lighten her up quite a bit. 5 lbs here and 5 lbs there..straps underneath would also be most desirable given the past discussion on this forum of the lifting eye possibly causing cracks.
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4
Well, it's spring again, finally. ...I know this is an engine forum, but I am busy with non-motor projects..which is kind of a relief!
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  #17   IP: 75.5.225.148
Old 01-08-2011, 08:04 AM
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You may wish to check this out: Pictures of Lever Used to Remove A-4}
Something like this will make it a lot easier to get the motor out from under the companion way steps.

Here is a video showing an A-4 being removed using only the existing rigging. I personally would use a come-along or chain-fall at the end of the halyard:
Removing A-4 part 1
Removing A-4 part 2

The set up Art mentions would take less time than just arranging for the crane and would be way cheaper. The money you save would pay for some nice upgrades. Jim's A-4 Rig to Remove the A-4
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  #18   IP: 24.196.45.242
Old 01-08-2011, 08:12 AM
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I would like to know more about the potential perils of lifting by the ring. I thought that is what it is for.

Laker
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  #19   IP: 71.168.64.77
Old 01-08-2011, 08:25 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is online now
 
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Regarding the link to using a lever

I didn't fully see how the lever was used from the pictures, but
it appears that the lever is attached to the lifting ring at a 90 degree
angle, putting it in sheer which would extremely stress the lifting ring
and head.

Regards
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  #20   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 01-08-2011, 08:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker View Post
I would like to know more about the potential perils of lifting by the ring. I thought that is what it is for.
There has been considerable discussion about the lifting eye/bracket imparting loads on the head that result in cracks. Those contributing to the discussion included some of the most knowledgeable members, the rockstars if you will.

My experience goes the other way. I've probably installed over a hundred A4's using the factory lifting eye without a single issue to my knowledge.

Given that the engines I lifted were new, I wonder if age, corrosion, etc. is a factor. Perhaps with an older engine the force placed from the lifting eye is the straw that broke the camel's back.
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Kalina - 77 Catalina 30 #600

the same year Elvis died

but the pic below is of my previous boat, a Westsail 32
powered with a Perkins 4-107
more pics found on my profile page


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  #21   IP: 74.110.198.83
Old 01-08-2011, 08:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
There has been considerable discussion about the lifting eye/bracket imparting loads on the head that result in cracks.
Are we talking about cracks or damage to the head, or to the block? It would seem to me that since the studs are threaded into the block and simply pass through holes in the head, that lifting the engine by them would put stress on the block more than on the head, unless you somehow apply a major lateral load - which seems to me shouldn't happen.

I'll certainly discuss all this with the yard before hoisting my engine out. I've decided to just pay them to bring their crane over - I'll have everything ready to go, so it shouldn't take more than a few minutes (hopefully). I do like the idea of lifting it with several straps all the way around and under the engine, rather than dangling it from just two head studs.

I've already taken off the manifold (which includes the carb) and will also remove the alternator and coil.
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  #22   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 01-08-2011, 09:19 AM
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Don't quote me but as best I recall the lift point of the eye places a torque load onto the head surface as opposed to a dead lift on the studs. This force would change as weighty engine components are removed. The cracks mentioned were in the head in the vicinity of the stud holes where the lifting eye is mounted.
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Kalina - 77 Catalina 30 #600

the same year Elvis died

but the pic below is of my previous boat, a Westsail 32
powered with a Perkins 4-107
more pics found on my profile page


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  #23   IP: 71.168.64.77
Old 01-08-2011, 09:22 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is online now
 
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Not only a issue in removing engine, but could damage a newly reconditioned
engine as well, head, head gasket, studs.
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  #24   IP: 69.237.154.68
Old 01-08-2011, 09:23 AM
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"Both"

Lifters,
Universal placed the lifting ring in that particular place because it is about the best balance point, (Neil can probably verify this). Having said that, if for some reason, even if it's just a confidence booster, you would feel better with more support, just add a decent quality ratchet strap around the oil pan and connect both ends to the lifting hook. Only snug it up enough to ease a little of the load and if the unthinkable happens (ring or stud failure) then the strap will absorb the weight.
Tom
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  #25   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 01-08-2011, 09:24 AM
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A quick search of the archive turned up this. There's more to be found though.

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...hlight=lifting
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Kalina - 77 Catalina 30 #600

the same year Elvis died

but the pic below is of my previous boat, a Westsail 32
powered with a Perkins 4-107
more pics found on my profile page


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