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  #1   IP: 13.13.137.2
Old 06-08-2012, 03:41 PM
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boatminion68 boatminion68 is offline
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Idle issues

We are slowly bringing our little A4 back from the dead. finally got it started and its running pretty well. Our problem is that we can not get it to idle below 1100rpm. We've cleaned the carb, twice using all the prescribed cleaners and we are not getting any traction. We are also have difficulty running without any choke. That all being said, we have some concerns regarding about engaging drive and reverse at a higher idle and now I'm looking for some expert guidance. While we are working on the carb, are we going to be doing damage to the transmission shifting at the engine speed identified. We are also having stall issue putting it into reverse quickly at the current speed (that could be operator error - first time with a boat this size I29)). In going over everything one thought I had was our timing was slightly off (we have the upgraded electronic ignition - thanks Moyer) causing problems on the low end. Am I off base here?

Lots of issues in Rochester, NY

Bill
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  #2   IP: 128.183.140.38
Old 06-08-2012, 03:54 PM
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Because the A4 doesen't really have a transmission, there's no engaging of gears involved. Both forward and reverse use a friction mechanism to engage. So, although you wouldn't want to engage it at that rpm on a long term basis, you're not in any immediate danger of harming the reversing gear.

On the issue of your high rpms, the fact that you need choke to run indicates that you are running very lean. Usual causes of this are either an air leak or a plugged jet.

1100 rpm is right around the transition from the idle jet to the main jet, so I would suspect your idle jet for starters. Dave Neptune can give you lots of excellent guidance in this area. When you clean the carb, be sure to put a fine wire thru every opening. Modern carb cleaners, due to clean-air laws, lack the powerful solvents they used to contain, and are no longer enough by themselves.
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  #3   IP: 24.34.54.47
Old 06-08-2012, 04:59 PM
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I've used moderate compressed air pressure to clean my carb.
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  #4   IP: 96.229.195.76
Old 06-09-2012, 10:39 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Lightbulb Fast idle

Bill, since you have done the carb a couple of times already it may be time to look for an air leak ~~ but first a few basics. I am going to asume that you have the idle mix screw at around 1 1/2 turns open off the seat AND you can adjust the idle (stop screw) speed screw. The idle screw should be backed out far enough to alow the butterfly valve to seat in the throat and then just screwed in enough to get the butterfly barely off the stop. If the carb is in this configuration it should start and you may need to use the throttle to get enough RPM's to idle. If you still have an issue of to fast an idle it is probably an air leak. You can find it by listening with a stethescaope or spray a tiny bit of "motor crack" (start fluid) around the carb and manifold. If the engine all of a sudden increases in RPM with a TINY bit of spray you have found the leak.
As far as timing since the install of the EI may have an affect on idle speed I doubt it is the problem and I would not consider moving it until you get some control of idle speed IE one step at a time~patience in diagnosing is a must. These engines are a bit forgiving of timing and unless you can find TDC to see if it is way off I would not be concerned with the timing yet.

Dave Neptune
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  #5   IP: 74.14.182.94
Old 06-09-2012, 11:29 AM
Sony2000 Sony2000 is offline
 
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I assume the throttle cable is NOTconnected, the idle speed screw is set anti clockwise as to NOT touch the stopper, and the engine still idles at 1100 rpm or more.
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  #6   IP: 71.253.245.108
Old 06-09-2012, 02:01 PM
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Ball Racing Ball Racing is offline
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Crazy question,
is the tach working properly?
Mine lately is reading all over the place and it's brand new.....
It may not be as high as you think,, maybe....
But if it is stalling in gear, it's too lean.
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  #7   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 06-09-2012, 04:38 PM
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Worked on one last week with a stalling problem. In neutral it ran fine but stalled when put in gear....problem was improper adjustment of forward gear and subsequent wrong adjustment on the reversing gear.

I cleaned the carb on that one as well without any progress. Once the forward gear and reversing gear was set up all was good. This might very well be your problem as well.

Edit: Dave, I thought that one was carb related...would have bet on it. I was able to keep it running with choke and once engaged it was fine. So I hauled apart the carb and cleaned it all out, back to the boat and no change. I talked with Neil about it as he was online at the time....it was the gearbox set up all out of wack.
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Last edited by Mo; 06-09-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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  #8   IP: 71.253.245.108
Old 06-09-2012, 06:43 PM
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Ball Racing Ball Racing is offline
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How was it out of adjustment that caused a stall?
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  #9   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 06-09-2012, 08:48 PM
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Forward gear was too tight and it bound tight being put in gear, stalling the engine...much the same as popping the clutch on a car. When you make that kind of adjustment the reversing gear also requires adjustment....he had a large neutral area. I think the previous owner was taking cavitation as a sign of slippage just adjusted the forward gear a couple of notches too far.

Initially, I thought she was fuel starved or had an air leak because it ran good at idle but to put it in gear was an immediate stall but I could keep it running manually applying choke from inside the cabin as the owner shifted. Since cleaning up the carb didn't help and checking it for air leaks didn't resolve the problem had to look elsewhere. To bench test the carb for air leaks, after re assembly, I spray a liberal amount of carb cleaner in it and put rag around my air nozzle (compressor) and drive the air to it. It will blow bubbles around the center gasket if there's a leak...easy to see.

So, puzzled, I start thinking something on the prop...as soon as I shifted the lever myself I figured I knew what was up. I had removed the carb, brought it back to my garage etc, then drove back to the boat, but was now out of time for the evening. Conferred with Neil Dutton once I got home (about 10 pm my time) ..forward and reversing gear adjustment was his thinking also.

The owner, grateful for my help (I won't take money for this stuff) insisted he could set it up according to Don Moyers spec and I told him to call if he had trouble....and he got it done a couple of days later. I got the happy camper call that all is fixed and we were to meet up at my club for a few sociables today....alas it rained all day.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.

Last edited by Mo; 06-09-2012 at 08:51 PM.
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  #10   IP: 71.253.245.108
Old 06-09-2012, 09:31 PM
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Since there are no gears for forward, and if you have a neutral point at all, you can't have the forward adjustment too tight that it stalls the engine.
The foward gear's job as it were is to lock the crank to the propeller nothing more, if you welded the crank to the prop it should not stall it.
I had my forward adjusted so tight you could barely engage it.
It made no difference in the engine running.
If you engine dies from being place in gear, something else is bad wrong.
Loosening the forward tightness to a point that the engine does not die, means it's slipping, that means it's heating up the discs, wearing out the friction material, and adding debris to your oil.
If a tight adjustment stalls the engine, you have too large of propeller, your reverse band is locked around the planetary set or a bad lean, plugged exhaust or just wore out engine.
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Last edited by Ball Racing; 06-09-2012 at 09:37 PM.
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  #11   IP: 24.224.206.117
Old 06-09-2012, 10:34 PM
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You are correct. Should have used proper terms for the set-up.

He had to back off the forward 2 notches (I think) and then to the reversing gear adjustment (I don't know how much on that one). If he started it in forward gear it would run all day...the problem occurred when he shifted.

There was no reverse that I would consider reverse. Had a partial reverse so that whole thing was out of adjustment. Brand new to the boat and thought that "that was how reverse was supposed to be". It would barely move the boat off the dock in good weather.

There was one other little item also. Synthetic oil in the engine. So that was one of the major considerations in holding off doing adjustments last Monday night because the oil had to be changed prior to working on it.

I haven't seen the boat since but he was coming up to our club today...rain delayed that. I wanted to see how it worked and check for slippage. I also told him he should be able to let go of the handle in reverse and it fall out of reverse...he couldn't remember if that was the case or not. Talking to him on Thursday is seems he might have gotten it right. He did tell me it's running great, pushes lots of water and has reverse (like never before)....so something had to be way off there. He followed Don's adjustment procedure and it seems to have worked out for him.
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"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
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